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Old 05-12-2011, 02:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default John Deere 404cid pump options

Just wondering what kind of different Injection pumps were used on john deere 404cid engines. We have a 4040 that does not like to start if the temps get down in the 40F or lower outside. Will start no problem if its pluged in. Would like to know if Deere ever used a newer pump that increases the rate of fuel at cranking rpms. We just bought a 4650, and it starts great. The 4040 has had the bottom and top end rebuilt to try and rectify the cold start problems with no luck. Thanks.
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Old 05-12-2011, 02:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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check your compression...thats what makes the heat you need to make fire,...also what is your cranking speed as well, if the starter is dragging, it will be hard starting.

Second could be injectors, tell tale signs are amount of smoke and color when it first starts

Lastly could be pump malfunction or timing.

adding more fuel when its cold actually makes it harder to start, it basically drowns it.

Your 4650 uses a inline Bosch pump, the 4040 a rotary RoosaMaster, not even close in design or operation.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
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When the top end was done, did they put in new valves or just grind the old valves/seats? If they ground the old ones, the valve protrusion may be out of spec. If your valve protrusion is low enough, this can cause you to lose enough compression to have hard starting....like albertabuck said, pull & test injectors, do a compression check at the same time.
The Bosch inline "A" pump used on older deeres (your 4650) has an excess fuel device that actually places the fuel rail in "excess delivery" which is past full delivery, but only when there is no pressure in the engine lube circuit. (During a cold start) This is why you get that nice sputter and cloud of smoke at startup. Switching to an A pump may be an option, but you may need different tips in your injection nozzles to handle the delivery from that big pump. They would have to be adjusted if nothing else. Or have the pump recalibrated for the smaller tractor.
Hope this gives you a little bit of an idea.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The head was replaced with a new one when the tractor was in the dealership the first time. They checked the compression and it was a little lower in one cylinder. When they pulled the head to check the valves there was a crack from the injector hole to the exhaust valve. They got a used head, but it had the same issue. So a new head was installed. It was also switched over to run two 12V batteries now, and turns over good. When we went to pick the tractor up at the dealership they ran the battery down trying to start it, then boosted it and used ether to finally get it going. The tractor started no better after the head then it did before. Then we tried a different dealership. That's when the bottom end was done. They also did the pump and injectors at the same time as the bottom end. The pump was adjusted because our idle speed was set about 200rpm high. They came and adjusted that. I know that the 4650 has a inline pump compared to the 4040's roosa-master pump. I just was wondering if they ever offered a inline pump on a 404. Two different answers when it comes to over fueling at start-up? Oh ya I forgot, the 4040 has 4800hrs now.
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Old 05-13-2011, 01:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo6620 View Post
Two different answers when it comes to over fueling at start-up?
Not sure if it really does any good, but thats my educated guess on what makes the difference between the two...or at least thats what I've been told. But it definitely doesn't help with atomization.

How much lower was the compression in the one cylinder? 4800 is still pretty low hours for that gal', assuming she's been taken care of.

Do you know if they actually checked the measurements before they installed the head? I have also seen reman injectors be 1000 psi off right out of the box, if they went that route. I know a lot of scatter a$$ techs that don't care about anything but having it out the door, and just because a part is new, doesn't always mean it's right.

The 404 in the 4040 was a holdout from the 30 series, the 4430 and 4630 both ran a 404 with an inline pump. The 404 never has been known for being a good cold starter, and there might not be a lot you can do about it. Not to bash green, I'm a big fan of the old Gen IIs, but Deere was a little behind the times not using a crossflow head. If everything with the new head is in spec., and injectors are set to the correct opening pressure, you may try advancing your injection timing a couple degrees past spec. Maybe there are some "old heads" around with more experience that would have other ideas.....

Last edited by versatile09; 05-13-2011 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 05-13-2011, 02:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by turbo6620 View Post
The head was replaced with a new one when the tractor was in the dealership the first time. They checked the compression and it was a little lower in one cylinder. When they pulled the head to check the valves there was a crack from the injector hole to the exhaust valve. They got a used head, but it had the same issue. So a new head was installed. It was also switched over to run two 12V batteries now, and turns over good. When we went to pick the tractor up at the dealership they ran the battery down trying to start it, then boosted it and used ether to finally get it going. The tractor started no better after the head then it did before. Then we tried a different dealership. That's when the bottom end was done. They also did the pump and injectors at the same time as the bottom end. The pump was adjusted because our idle speed was set about 200rpm high. They came and adjusted that. I know that the 4650 has a inline pump compared to the 4040's roosa-master pump. I just was wondering if they ever offered a inline pump on a 404. Two different answers when it comes to over fueling at start-up? Oh ya I forgot, the 4040 has 4800hrs now.
Two different answers from two different guys talking of two different pumps and installed on two different engines with two different compression ratios and timing...well I think you get the point

Long and short if you have had the work done you say has been, can I ask, had you already paid the bill the first time when the tractor didn't start when you went to pick it up? If so you put a stop payment on the cheque and told them when they had it fixed to call you? Have any of these outfits ever heard of a little thing called warranty?...how about after the second go? How is it that they had to come afterwards to set the idle speed on the new pump? That is set when you start the fricken thing after you put it on. Who were you dealing with...Micky Mouse at Disney Diesel or something

The 404 goes all the way back to the 20 series, the fact that they or you was willing to put on a used head on a tractor with only 4000 plus hours makes me wonder what other parts were installed that were substandard. Are you sure the pump and injectors are new, or are they new from a wrecker
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:12 AM   #7 (permalink)
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The pump was rebuilt and the injectors were tested at the second dealership. They just said that the compression was lower and would like to see why. That's when the head was found to be cracked. After they got a bad used head to replace it they couldn't find a good used head. That's when a brand new head was used. Not sure they checked it. What's wrong with used parts? As was stated, new sometimes isn't right. Your right about the mickey mouse club. That's why were at a loss now as what to do. The second dealership we thought was going to fix the problem.
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:45 AM   #8 (permalink)
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the 404 with the roosamaster should start at any temp as long as the engine turns over, the inline 404 (4430, 4630) would not start unless it was 70 deg out. I think you need to first check timing, check for fuel leak down from check valve in transfer pump, if that is ok and your cranking speed is good then I would remove injection pump and send to fuel specialtist and have them first put on test stand and check it's specs, as in fuel delivery at cranking speed, I am guessing your delivery valve or metering valve is sticking. Compression is important as well but your not complaining of power loss when running or engine miss when idling, even if one or two is low it should still start, it would spudder and smoke for a while after it starts.
If all else fails just keep a can of ether with you, nothing wrong with ether as long as you use it in moderation, JD ether is the best around but I don't like to use it because it will ether lock an engine, instead use a cheaper grade and don't worry about the engine lock, sounds as if it will start on a little snort, it will save the starting system.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:05 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks for all the replys. Is there an easy way to check the timing? Also what kind of pressure does the transfer pump run at? Is it the check valve in the transfer pump, or is it a check in the low pressure side of the injection pump that could be bleeding down?
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Old 05-14-2011, 01:08 AM   #10 (permalink)
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It is fairly simple to check the timing, there are marks on the crank pulley and inside the pump behind a little timing mark cover. Timing is set by removing the front cover of the pump drive and loosening bolts that hold the drive gear to the pump drive hub. The holes are slotted, allowing you to adjust the timing as required.

If you want to try it yourself, get hold of the tech info first, if you don't have access to a shop manual I think I have a electronic version of a manual that would show how to do this, I might be able to send you the pages you need if you would like as long as you don't need it for a few days.

I have nothing against used parts, but only in certain places. Utilizing replacement used parts in an engine rebuild will almost always come back and bite you where and when you don't need it too. I warranty any work I do, but only if the important parts are replaced with new, reman, or repaired, eg: bearings, clutch discs, shift syncros, liners, pistons, ect. I will put in used parts if they are insisted on, but then there is no warranty. I will not even work on something if I know it needs new and the customer says no way. They can take it somewhere else.
Knock on wood, I haven't had one come back yet, but its inevitably gonna happen someday...but maybe thats some proof of there is a time and a place for used parts. I might be slow, so I'm told, but its because I spend more time in the field than the shop, but my customers appreciate the meticulous nature of my work. That and I'm half the price of the guys in town
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