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Morris razr in dry hard clay

16K views 42 replies 17 participants last post by  matt hagny 
#1 ·
Hi all

I'm from Western Australia and crop about 15,000 acres with mostly red clay and some lighter country. I have been using a Morris contour drill for years and it's been great but like all tyne machines, you can't seed into a lot of organic matter with out getting blocks and with rainfall being minimal in these later years, I want as much cover as possible.So I'm looking into a 60ft disc seeders and I'm pretty keen on the razr. We do a lot of dry seeding so I'm interested to know if a fully weighted up razr will get the crop in the ground dry? Also what speed do you operate at?
 
#2 · (Edited)
Where are you Jim; I'm in Esperance and running a PillarLaser. Looked at Razyr last year and to my knowledge there are no machines in WA. They wanted to sell me one to get one in the state. I know of some modules on machines in heavy soils as trials . Could give you phone numbers of these people.

Looking at the specs of the Razyr it starts at 2T lighter than my machine for the same specs. If the frame is identical to the C2 (it's what I moved from) it lacks the ability to transfer weight from the centre frame to the wings. On the pillar you run down pressure on the wing all the time to get even weight distribution.

I mostly have duplex Soils with small areas of clay. The Pillar has failed to penetrate in a tiny percentage of these areas. There is 290kg of weight on each disc if you can imagine. I wouldn't want it to run over my toe.

I am intending to add a couple of ton of weight next year . The wheels of the drill come right off the ground when it won't penetrate (saw this as it went over an old dam bank) so it's not a breakout issue.

Ps 11km/h
Pillar Lasers Inc. | Agricultural Equipment - Farm Machinery
 
#3 ·
I find it funny, you guys over there are wanting to add weight to your drills, and I'm trying to find ways to make mine lighter! We don't need much weight when it's always so wet here!
 
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#5 ·
Here is something I wrote for the farm weekly machinery section (yet to be published either in full or part.

Stubble handling dictates so much of what we do on the farm and it consumes so much labour and resources. I had gotten to the point of slashing stubbles both cereals and canola. We had got to 12" spacing and really wanted to go narrower for weed competition. There were still times when we slashed and still was forced to burn. Along with this we also graze our stubbles flattening areas making slashing less effective. We have often looked at discs but they didn't answer a lot of our needs. Stubble handling was our number one priority.

We were also was keen to avoid Hair pinning which seems almost unavoidable with discs. We wanted an operator to know the job was done when they pulled out of the paddock, not that the machine had covered the ground but that the seed was in contact with the soil.

We also wanted some soil throw for treflan incorporation and some sub seed cultivation.

The new rage of vertical tillage ,stubble cutting, disc chains and every other do hickey to fix the straw didn't impress us either. Just do a job once and do it well. We often fall victim in agriculture of putting a band aid on a problem as it develops rather than just fixing the problem . All these other solutions require more capital, more wear and tear on tractors and more labour.

The pillar achieves all of these objectives. It has a boot that is running in the shadow of the disc which has a compound angle which also incidentally means the disc self sharpens. This boot is in contact with the soil and forced the straw apart longitudinally. It is possible to hairpin the fertiliser trench but the seed shelf should stay clear. The boot throws a little soil so it can incorporate chemicals. A little less than a tine drill but more than traditional single disc units. The guys at PillarLaser call the machine a disc/hoe drill. For all intents it looks like a single disc drill but it incorporates the best features of both. There is a bit of soil movement to create a seedbed with some tilth like a hoe and it handles straw if anything better than many disc drills. Talking to many disc owners and they say that if anything your straw needs to be better prepared than for a tine. That would have been a step backwards for us.

At harvest time we made far better progress by cutting as high as we could in high yielding crops. I would like to try this machine with a stripper platform. It would be the ultimate in efficiency. I'm sure we shave a coupe of weeks off harvest that not only will put more and better quality grain in our pockets but we also saved ~150 hours on a class 8 harvester. That will pay us back at replacement time.

We started seeding serradella around the 8th of April initially into canola stubble which wasn't very challenging.(we had a very wet year in 16 and canola struggled to grow) and then proceeded to barley stubbles where yields had been up to 6.5t/ha and the pillar handled them with ease. Some of it even got sown into straw as a thunderstorm went over making the straw really damp. We proceeded into the canola program on the 11th of April starting sowing into a 5t/ha wheat stubble that had been cut high at harvest and stocked over the summer. The ewes knocked a lot of stubble over in the last month they were in there. The pillar enabled us to sow into the night till 11pm. It was not totally unstoppable by straw but I don't think a tine would go a hundred meters in the middle of the day. We were getting by nine to ten pm about a block every km or so of travel. Very tough conditions. We then sowed canola into a barley paddock cut high that had areas that yielded in excess of 7t/ha here is where we started to meet a night time limit by about 9pm we gave up. The best thing is the machine showed us it couldn't do it anymore. It didn't just look like it was working but really wasn't. We have been very impressed by its ability to handle straw. We don't run a machine 24hrs but we would like to get maximum effort from one labour unit. Knocking off at 5pm because the dew came down doesn't tick our boxes. We have never had a machine that was capable of 24hr operation. This is as close as we have got to that capacity. Our objective in our non wetting soils is to run down last years row. I feel we will be slightly better off with this machine if we nudge 25mm or so just to plant on the shoulder. Crop is coming up in rows where the disc has run down last years row but pressed down straw is shading it a bit.

It seems to handle rocks well enough and after tine drills I can look forward to picking the rocks that I missed last year. I watched it actually split a conglomerate rock the other day. I also saw one it pushed back into the ground. Never seen a seeder do that before.

Travel speed is 11km/h and I feel that it's getting as much done as a 18m machine would especially if you throw in some stubble issues. Every time you turn a rig around to dump straw it costs about a minute. A block every three minutes is a third of your productive capacity. Fuel use indicates that with a 14t bin on the back I'm using 285hp (.2L/hp/hr) about 57L/hr on 48 openers.

For a very small percentage of the farm the pillar battled to penetrate the soil so next year we will be adding weight to the bar. It has an ingenious system whereby it transfers via the wing rams. By my calculations there should be 290kg of weight on each disc. That soil must be incredibly hard to withstand that kind of pressure; I wouldn't want it to go over my toes.

Maintenance on the openers is relatively simple. You can have an opener disassembled in a few minutes. All the bearings are available off the shelf at your local supply. The boot is the main part that is required from the manufacturer and we are hoping to get a couple of seasons from them. The disc is available off the shelf here as well.

The wear on the discs was a little higher than anticipated going through our first set of discs in 1500ha. Dick Fresian; who designed the machine said we were by far the most abrasive soil he has come across. He says there are thicker discs available that may get us through a season. I'm not alone in wear I saw on twitter the other day an 1890jd owner got through a set of discs in 985ha.

In doing the deal Dick said that they would only sell a complete machine. Many units are sold in Canada and fitted to a Flexicoil 6000 frame. Dick along with his son Mike and his head assembler came out in February to put the bar together. It's a nice personal touch for the designer and one of the owners of the company to come out and assemble your bar. I don't think many majors could match that kind of service. Along with the price of the unit came a considerable spares kit including a full set a discs and new boots; probably the major cost of running the bar.

The bar came fully kitted for double shoot but in our configuration we are only running single. We are also injecting UAN and a fungicide but we sourced parts for that from optima agriculture (friction lines).

It's not a machine for the wheatbelt though. If you are not challenged by stubble load there are more important things to get right. For us this machine changes everything and opens up doors that were previously closed like cover cropping . I would also like to be able to plant serradella just after the harvester. In our environment we often have moisture in the summer time and in recent years it's come back to bite us in the winter with waterlogging. If we can convert that moisture into organic nitrogen or use it to grow tillage radish to break up a hardpan while at the same time mitigate risk I think we will be on a winner.

In short I used to look back waiting for the next stubble block now I just look back in wonderment for how easy this machine handles its task.
 
#15 ·
View attachment 116497

View attachment 116505

Having trouble resizing my other photos.
I also have a Pillar Laser and have had very good luck seeding into high residue. Here I am seeding spring barley into 90 bu winter wheat stubble:



Nig71, do you run the trash shields on your openers? Do you ever have any issues with dirt building up between the disc blade and the seed boot/scraper and stopping the disc?
 
#21 · (Edited)
We got some 3/16 UHMW black and copied the original design - no more behind problems ever again. The original at 1/8 is just too flimsy and ends up behind the seed boot no matter the spacing. Probably 1/4" would work too although it may be a bit harder to bend open to remove a plug if it happens. The plastic behind the boot is VERY annoying.

Sheets of 4' x 10' was $210 Canadian and cuts easily on a table saw.

Also, a gap of 1/4 to 1/2 inch is desirable between blade and guard because the blade is on an angle so dirt and straw can pass back out again yet blocks straw poking in. It doesn't need to be against the blade at all. In some sticky soil types the build up is thrown up from the back side of the blade and without the gap gets plugged very quickly.

We tried going without the guard completely in muddy tall oat straw and got about 10 meters and already was built up.

Just our experience in horrible mud seeding conditions this year. Seeded into unharvested lentils and flax, and with heavy April snows it lodged our stripped wheat stubble flat on the ground.

 
#22 ·
We got some 3/16 UHMW black and copied the original design - no more behind problems ever again. The original at 1/8 is just too flimsy and ends up behind the seed boot no matter the spacing. Probably 1/4" would work too although it may be a bit harder to bend open to remove a plug if it happens. The plastic behind the boot is VERY annoying.

Sheets of 4' x 10' was $210 Canadian and cuts easily on a table saw.

Also, a gap of 1/4 to 1/2 inch is desirable between blade and guard because the blade is on an angle so dirt and straw can pass back out again yet blocks straw poking in. It doesn't need to be against the blade at all. In some sticky soil types the build up is thrown up from the back side of the blade and without the gap gets plugged very quickly.

We tried going without the guard completely in muddy tall oat straw and got about 10 meters and already was built up.

Just our experience in horrible mud seeding conditions this year. Seeded into unharvested lentils and flax, and with heavy April snows it lodged our stripped wheat stubble flat on the ground.
I was hoping to make mine out of 3/16" but my plastics supplier didn't have any. The next time I replace them I'll insist on getting some 3/16".
 
#24 · (Edited)
My wife took some shots on her twitter feed. just go down a bit. https://twitter.com/ArvelLawson

I don't think it is much worse then guys seeding into heavy straw with conservaplows making piles. We run a high cleaning wheel and leave a black line and that also packs the seed better.

Wheat, same trick, run the cleaning wheel a bit higher. With high mulch content the seed must be on dirt so we put canola down at least an inch or it will get moisture stranded and die if it gets too shallow.

On my twitter you can see seeding into wheat, lentils etc.
The stripped wheat was lodged from heavy snows, but fortunately straw was dry and cut nicely. You can see the black lines from the road. Also the little video is seeding wheat into tall oat straw stubble. We used honeybee headers about 3 feet off the ground. A very challenging year so far

https://twitter.com/efarmerdot



Canola into wheat stubble. Note the straw isn't in the seed row.



From the cab...

 
#25 ·
My wife took some shots on her twitter feed. just go down a bit. https://twitter.com/ArvelLawson

I don't think it is much worse then guys seeding into heavy straw with conservaplows making piles. We run a high cleaning wheel and leave a black line and that also packs the seed better.

Wheat, same trick, run the cleaning wheel a bit higher. With high mulch content the seed must be on dirt so we put canola down at least an inch or it will get moisture stranded and die if it gets too shallow.

On my twitter you can see seeding into wheat, lentils etc.
The stripped wheat was lodged from heavy snows, but fortunately straw was dry and cut nicely. You can see the black lines from the road. Also the little video is seeding wheat into tall oat straw stubble. We used honeybee headers about 3 feet off the ground. A very challenging year so far...
I set my drill up pretty much the same, cleaning wheel running high, seeding about and inch deep. I got about the same results. My canola isn't all up yet, but seeing someone else in the same situation makes me feel better that it will work out fine.

 
#26 · (Edited)

JD 1895 seeded beside Pillar

Pillar seeded same day, same rates by same farm, who own both drills

I try not to post too much stuff on here but I just couldn't take it anymore. Matt you seem to to so stuck on the JD and pass judgement on an opener that you have never seen in action. The results above are very obvious in showing by far superior emergents and growth with the double shoot Pillar verses the JD 1895. The pillar has no need for a firming wheel as it does most of the seeding through the side shoot placing the fert below and to the side of the seed. Even when we seed with the disc it has much better emergents than the JD. Conditions were good for seeding but very little rain before emergents, the JD tries to force seed soil contact by using a firming wheel where the Pillar lays the seed on a clean seed bed a closes with some packing pressure unlike the Deere. When measured the plant growth on the Deere was 2.5", the Pillar over 4" more than twice the plants and almost double the growth very easy choice as to which I would want.
Cheers

Pillar is the right picture or the green one
 

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#29 ·
I was wondering the same things as Dick about Matt's comments. I have seen Matts parts on JD drills. They do work better than stock pieces. Matt also has a lot of experience in the US and with JD drills. He also has a dog in the hunt since as he sells parts for the JD drills.

My Pillar drill works well for me. It suits my management practices and my soil. It does better in a lot of cases than an 1895. It can pull heavy but so does an 1895 with the mid rows down. Is it perfect no. Does Dick continue to try to improve his design. Yes he does.

I'm looking forward to a reply from Matt. I'm on the CF to learn and help other producers out. Slinging mud doesn't often get you very far.
 
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#37 ·
With only 200lbs of pressure on the disk it doesn't go in the ground and with more than 240lbs packing pressure the clay will be packed too hard for the roots to penetrate. There closing system doesn't work. They kept moving the packer closer to the disk. Watch any video taken of them working and you can watch the disk going up and down. When runnig with the down pressure set high I couldn't stand to look back at the machine a see how the disk goes in ,then the arm bends over and the disk comes out of the ground and does it all over again. I tried one and lost $100's of thousands with it. Morris doesn't stand behind there product. Their bearing setup is garbage. Scraper setup on my drill was made wrong They wouldn't step up to the plate and fix it. They acknowledged that it was wrong
 
#40 ·
IMHO .......

I have an 1895 drill. It works good for me, but it has well-known limitations. Some of these have been addressed by aftermarket solutions to overcome the original design flaws. No doubt the maintenance on these drills is both time consuming and expensive, but as its owners can attest, it does a fine job.

I have not seen a morris razr in action -- but their morris independent opener contour seems to do a really good job, especially in 12" spacing. I would think the morris razr probably a decent seeding outfit.

I have seen quite a few fields seeded with bourgault disc drills -- and they seem to have really good stands year after year. I'm sure that they have limitations, but, the guys that own them around me are really good farmers. The 60' size with MRB and big carts are also appealing to big farmers who need to cover a lot of acres.

I have not seen too many fields seeded with new Case/NH drills, but a neighbor bought one this year. Initial feedback was he really liked it, especially the cart.

I have seen plenty of fields seeded with pillar drills. It seems like they do a good job. Maybe in some conditions they might struggle like every other drill (hard, dry soils with closing slot problems; seed into dust and not get any rain; etc. ) but there is no question the guys that use the pillar seem to like it. One observation is that it moves a lot more soil than a JD1895, but, is cold soil conditions, that is probably a positive for warming ground up. I think it can probably reliably seed into a number of conditions that a JD1895 would struggle, especially in wetter conditions. No doubt the build quality of the drill is excellent. And the maintenance on the drill is much, much, much less than a JD1895. All of the guys I know who run pillar drills are much smarter than me -- and I have no doubt that if they thought the pillar wasn't good for their operation -- it would be replaced very quickly.
 
#42 ·
As far as I know the only undercut disc opener available new is the Australian built Boss. The only other one would be the flexicoil barton from 20 plus years ago. I haven't seen the boss in the paddock or in our area but it could be an alternative to the JD 1890 that I have run for 12 years or so. Seeding gear is a massive investment and there a lot of these machines(boss) in NSW and Victoria in all sort of soil types and crops and if they didn't perform then no one would buy them.
 
#43 ·
Flexi-coil also managed to sell quite a few Barton openers back in the day -- doesn't mean they were a good design. As a counterpoint to yours, if the 'undercut' design was so good, there'd be a lot more machinery companies copying it by now, since the patents expired long ago.
 
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