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Claas/Sunnybrook zero degree (ZAPS) research

54K views 221 replies 33 participants last post by  Don Boles 
#1 · (Edited)
A feeding issue in peas at high feed rates (50+T/HR) got me to thinking about this. The slower cylinder speed used in peas (300 to 400) aggravate this. A 780 is at least a 70 T/HR machine in peas.
Feeder would make an odd noise for a short period of time before plugging the feeder, the APS, or both.
SWAGged that material was feeding above APS shaft centreline packing material at top of feeder house. The 36 degree (-36) backswept angle, smooth, APS caps acting too much like a paddle and not enough of a material advancing device.

Sunnybrook working with me on this project.

The lessor steep, used paddle in the pic is -14 backswept, that eliminated the feeding issue I have observed in peas and header limitation became the new limit. ****, it’s always something, I want engine power limit! About 150 seperator hours on that paddle.
The more erect paddle is zero “0” degrees to shaft centerline. Ran about 1.5 hours in flax and about three hours in swathed canola. Season then ended preventing further testing.
The 0 paddles will only have less feeder rattling and maybe reduced dust, the higher rotating speed and material nature will not lend to any difference in feeding wheat or barley.
Paddles were changed from -14 to 0 mid afternoon, couldn’t tell any difference in the flax feeding wise between the -14 and 0 degree paddle but running feeder house depth was only 35 to 50.
Dust may have been reduced at the feeder house by 0 over the -14 but wouldn’t hang my hat on that.
Rattling of feeder house was less at high canola feed rates with the 0’s.

Pros:
- Eliminates feeding issue in peas
- Reduces noise emitting from feeder chain area at high feed rates

iffies:
- Reduced feeder house entry dust

Unknowns:
- Rock protection
- Possible APS drum wrapping with crop material
- Reduced seperation at APS concave (irrelevant in wheat and canola as well as 12 section rotor separation)
- Or...maybe the notched leading edge will thresh/and/or separate better

More testing required:
- Definitely

Comments?
Sunnybrook will have samples at Agritrade this week in Red Deer, the ones in the pics to be exact.

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#44 ·
Lol, funny your should say that.
In an automotive parts shop in town yesterday, needed a bulb for MacDon extremity lighting, neighbor says “Say, if you happen to get unbusy I’m a bit behind.”
I explained my renters are first which he already knew, he said he also wanted to compare his 760’s to see how much things have changed in 5 years.
No rest for Don!
 
#51 ·
Finally plugged my zero degree APS last night on a canola pile, auto stop worked so fast there wasn’t even any smoke.
Concave pushed down to 35 mm from 10. Hmm.
Lower concave to max 50 mm, reverse header, reengage machine at idle, no sweat. Raise concave back to 10 mm. Very critical step! THEE MOST CRITICAL STEP!
25 seconds. Tops!

Zero degree caps make it much harder to plug the APS, it tears ****ty swathes apart far and away better, but when it does it’s also much easier to unplug.
Something about the wedging action of 63, -36 degree smooth stock caps being gone now completely changes feeding fundamentals.
Performance across all crops (I’ve harvested) is far more consistent, the nagging feeling that at times it just wasn’t performing right across all conditions but I don’t know why, is gone!

Also seem to be getting some extra threshing action, SB’s 5 tooth APS cap design which appears to result in very high main SB Multi crop concave separation, when the black jackets checked engine power limit dropped wheat straw losses for me (didn’t have to ask, lol) I had 4 rotor sections of 12 covered when they told me I had almost zero loss on dropped straw, neither head nor loose loss.
My theory is when already threshed more by the aggressive caps it separates sooner.
By the way, I run round bar APS concave all the time, concave closed in canola, wheat and flax, open in peas and barley.

Turns out I know the farmer who has two identical combines but one with the zeros. Hmm, need a name for these.
He quickly requested a second set. Don’t think he is a member here, be nice to get his take and why he wanted the second set.
 
#52 ·
I tried to get a set this year but no luck. really would have liked to try a set out. I like your concept of the 0 degree angle and high inertia with the extra weight on the impeller. Just curious Don on why you close APS For canola. I run mine open when in canola with the wide wire grates with as slow as possible cylinder speed. My theory is that all the canola that is threshed out at auger and feeder chain have a place to fall through adding more separation. if you get higher chaff amounts you can close or put in more rotor covers as you should have less grain in the rotors. You wont have as much damage chopped up straw at the aps as you would over the rotors so separation should be better. Just a thought.
 
#53 ·
I’ve never been able to ascertain much difference in open or closed APS concave, just more crap on the shoe in canola.
Dealing with chaff loads is easy with hydraulic covers, I run as fast a cylinder as possible without cracking, all crops.

It seems there is no completely wrong nor right answer in setting a Claas due to such great flexibility, lol.
 
#54 · (Edited)
I hope you get them refined for retail within a half year. My APS wear caps are nearing the end of their life. It seems like the last missing link for doing green stem soybeans. We upgraded both of our 585s to Sunnybrook cylinder and HHS concave this year which has greatly improved production, but I have gotten a few unexpected APS, cylinder plugs. Thanks to Don Bole's 12mm rule I was able to remove the plugs from the cab and back in operation in half a minute.
 
#56 ·
It certainly does!
Tell you a weird story from last night though.
Turned at a headland with a full hopper and started unloading immediately, suddenly the header auto shut off, even though running much slower to unload. WTF..
Finishing unloading on the stop, started harvesting again. Shut off again!
Started getting plug/slip warnings for various drives from auto stop.
WTF...!
Hmm...
Ooooooh!
Remember when I said hopper was full? Slightly overfull turns out.
Canola “oiled” the belts.
Ran variables through full ranges the spread the goodness thinner, helped but took about an hour to get completely over it, and by two hours they kinda acted like they had more traction than normal, would get the beloved
“ENGINE SPEED, CRITICAL OF UNITS”
warning with no other slip warnings.

These zero degree APS caps can load the cylinder more evenly and throughly, the amount of material it takes seems to overwhelm the backswept stock caps to feed it, these machines are at times hamstrung and most don’t realize it.
I hope you get them refined for retail within a half year. My APS wear caps are nearing the end of their life. It seems like the last missing link for doing green stem soybeans. We upgraded both of our 585s to Sunnybrook cylinder and HHS concave this year which has greatly improved production, but I have gotten a few unexpected APS, cylinder plugs. Thanks to Don Bole's 12mm rule I was able to remove the plugs from the cab and back in operation in half a minute.
Thanks but Brian Debonko was the first one to say 12 mm max here I believe.

Think they should, few ideas still kicking around but pretty well nailed.
I still have to wonder why Claas does what they do with the APS caps but I’m getting so I don’t care.
 
#60 ·
So whats the final verdict on the 0 deg caps? Game changer with significant feeding benefits? and is there negatives to having them(rock protection compromised)? Im quite curious as this was my first year with the 780 lexions and just felt all season that there has to be a way to get more material into that beast.
 
#61 · (Edited)
There will be many more sets out next year, as usual with a new item the more hands you put it in, the more will be learned.
My original goal of higher feedrate peas was completely realized.
Stock, -36 degree smooth caps allow the fluffy plant material to ride above centreline APS shaft leading to backfeeding resulting in feeder plugging, APS plugging or both. I would say 30% higher feedrate is a good guess, limit is shifted to engine power and/or header. Front for my Oz friends.

I originally thought little difference would be observed in other crops but no longer think that.
They feed smoother all the time, rugged/bunched canola swathes best way to observe that.

I don’t think there is any change in rock protection, towards the end of the season I was in very rocky conditions, snowed flat wheat, lots of rocks in the trap dumped repeatedly but no machine inspection yet.
Seems the angle makes little difference, either cap beats the rock in the stone trap, either one puts the odd one through.

The five tooth zero degree caps appear to thresh wheat better to some extent.

One of my other concerns, wrapping of APS, has never been reported.

So...why did Claas design APS caps the way they did?
I once read it was to feed the cylinder smoother. O...K.
How does a 36 degree backswept smooth cap tear anything apart?!
If they’d said it’s to increase separation at the APS concave I actually would have believed that.
A cornerstone of Claas marketing is the APS separation, run closed by me in wheat (all crop to cylinder for threshing) canola (too much crop material on shoe). I do run it open in barley and peas of course.
Since 12 section separation and high speed rotors the minimal separation lost at a closed APS concave is irrelevant.

New caps will be cast, more cost effective and better consistency of shape and weight.

This is all anecdotal of course, my opinion and 3.25 will get you a bus ride in Calgary.
 
#63 ·
Don, what about the others that used these caps? What have they said? Anything at all from them? Would be nice from a testing standpoint to have more evidence of a benefit.

Currently, I struggle at times with 40' of tall soybeans on a 740. If the feeder speed is slower, it seems the feeder plugs in the back of the feederhouse against the APS. I have witnessed feeder noise that sounds like it will plug. It may or may not, and at times, when the APS does take it, the concave jumps 10mm. For some reason, faster feeder speed helps. There is something not taking the crop quite like it should, limiting further capacity.

I might lower front drum and see if that helps feeding of the APS.
 
#64 ·
One farm had two otherwise identical machines, but one with SB caps.
Like all farms that grow peas that is the first crop harvested, after running a short period of time they called for the second set, citing feeder backfeeding and plugging elimination on the SB equipped unit. These are coincidentally 740’s I believe, so narrow feeder.

The feeding you describe sounds exactly like peas act with the stock setup although I’m surprised faster feeder speed helps in your case.
 
#68 ·
Thats an interesting point of view Don. It is shocking how far from original position the teeth are to achieve 0 degrees! At the current 0 degrees, does it retain original circumference, appears smaller? I don't expect the cavity to capture chaff and cause a balance issue.
 
#69 ·
Overall diameter exactly the same.

-36, Dale calls it relief, does seem drastic, but which one is drastic?
I’m still mystified why the extreme backswept angle Claas uses. I’m actually surprised they fed as good as they do.

The smooth, clean design of the cast, especially the sides, may actually create less dust but that might be just grasping at straws, ha ha!

I thought that cavity was going to be solid cast, I think balance will be even enough and no issue.

Cast is lighter than welded assembly.

I sure hope rock resistance is adequate.
 
#70 ·
All the APS was meant to do is prep the mat for the main cylinder. “Comb” through it. It’s what set the Lexion apart way back then. “Sunnybrooks” own words.

Trouble is that’s the exact same APS used 20 years ago!!!

We’ll try a couple sets and compare next year side by side.
 
#71 · (Edited)
Please do, I’ll be running a set in my entire fleet...of one.

It always seemed to feed smoother to me, based not on side by side comparo but 11 seasons and likely 2000 hours of harvesting seat time.

Swathed canola and plugging APS only twice and the yawner unplugging also showed me the zero degree advantage.
But nothing like the pea advantage, my original goal!
 
#77 ·
I know it is impossible to measure unless you have two identical machines one with the caps and one without, but... I'd love to know if feeder house noise is greatly reduced, is feeder chain life extended. That has been my biggest complaint on our 740, 400 h and feeder chain is done.

Also, can these caps be run with key stock grates? I would think there wouldn't be much clearance left.
 
#80 ·
Our 740 chain lasted 2000 engine hours, corn soybeans wheat, mainly soybeans. I wish I would have left it in longer,as I had APS trouble that actually ended up breaking the just replaced feeder chain. Other than that, I never had a metric ounce of trouble with the feeder chain. I did take a link out twice from the original chain before replacing.

Don, have you had any APS brackets bend back or twist off to a side from foreign material hitting the wider than normal zaps?
 
#84 ·
ZAPS in good supply!

There will be about 125 ZAPS (Zero degree, APS) sets based on an equal mix of wide and narrow body machines (narrow is 56, wide 63) available for next year, I’d call that a full roll out!

One Claas dealer that did a side by side comparo last season has ordered 25 sets. Good sign.
 
#85 ·
There will be about 125 ZAPS (Zero degree, APS) sets based on an equal mix of wide and narrow body machines (narrow is 56, wide 63) available for next year, I’d call that a full roll out!

One Claas dealer that did a side by side comparo last season has ordered 25 sets. Good sign.
Do you know which crops the side by side was done in? Is it mostly a pea application in your area, or showing benefit in cereals and canola as well?
 
#88 ·
Just ordered 2 sets of the zero degree SB caps through my dealer, Alberta Ag. Will be available late January early Feb.

My current caps are wore down and should be flipped, so I decided to put on these SB caps on instead. Everything I have been reading on here makes perfect sense on performance improvement. That and the fact that I have a lot of faith in the Sunnybrook products.
 
#90 ·
Yes, peas is our first crop, although have been debating on pulling peas from the rotation as we grow lentils and chickpeas as well. Would like to have 2 legumes in the rotation max to simplify everything.

Testing side by side with 2 identical machines would be a good idea. Might just throw both sets on right away though, as we have nothing but time in the winter for shop work. Farming season not so much.
 
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