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428 hp Kirovet coming to North America ...

126K views 337 replies 64 participants last post by  arie515 
#1 · (Edited)
At the Agri-Trade in Red Deer I saw a poster saying that they're bringing the big tractors back over to NA for 2016. What's a basic 428hp tractor worth now a days?? Sign said $198K US funds, 428hp Mercedes-Benz Tier 3 engine , no emissons no (DEF) , 38,000 lbs with just singles on but in the pic. it had duals on so not sure how much it would weigh then. Hydraulics says closed center load sensing 180L/min so close to 50 gal (US) a minute. Not sure is that enough now days to run a big variable rate air drill??





Think the above one is in the poster pic and the below one must be a newer version or something.

 

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#47 · (Edited)
Sorry but I don't understand your point. Whether Russia is blocking western machines or not is irrelevant to this thread. This machine is interesting because it's simple, well-built, uses a reliable German power train with lots of horsepower, seems to have an acceptable cab and user ergonomics, and will be imported and sold for around $200k USD, about 1/3 the price of Red, Blue or Green tractors. The fact they do produce so many machines is relevant simply because it means parts will be easy to come by and the machine will be supported for some time. And if the CVT version becomes available and proves reliable, that's coming out ahead of the incumbent brands here in North America. If Deere or Case want to compete on similar merits (including price), they are more than welcome to, and I'd certainly buy from them over the Kirovet if all things were equal--dealer support would be a primary factor in that case.

But whether or not Russia is subsidizing the manufacturer (or blocking western trade) is not really a part of this conversation, unless you're implying that it is immoral or dishonest to buy such an imported machine because Russia is unfairly restricting access to their domestic machinery market, and subsidizing the manufacturing of this tractor. Or if you are morally opposed to Putin, that's a legitimate opinion and reason for buying such a machine.

If enough machines do get imported, I imagine that overall prices will eventually rise to meet our domestic prices and the price advantage will erode. In the meantime, price is a strong factor in its favor if other things are equal. And it's possible that if Deere and CNH (and others) were threatened sufficiently, we might see tariffs brought to bear on our end to counter Russian tarrifs. But the market will win out in the end. It's good to have competition entering.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Sorry I should of explained my view a little better. That is great if there are 2000 of them made world wide a year and that many of them made over a long history, however how many of those total machines ever made it to North America and if all the parts are in Russia they don't do anyone any good over here.

I believe the machine has some potential in the North American market, but when retailer goes on about how many machines are made and sold worldwide it is a skewed number when they are sold in a protected domestic market. What would happen if the US closed their borders to Claas (Lexion), Fendt, and other international manufacturers? Would make the Case, John Deere and New Holland numbers look better too.

One more question though, what happens in 2017/2018 when they have to go to Final Tier 4 (or god forbid Tier 5) and a potential decision is made its not economical to sell these machines in North America.
 
#49 ·
Probably dumb questions but why are these tractors called Kirovet when the the name on the hood and brochures seem to use different names. Around here they all seemed to be named Balarus.

When you say a hundred thousand tractors do you mean every tractor this company built all the way from the smallest to the largest? That would have a huge effect on parts and service availability as I bet smaller models outnumber these a hundred to one.

How are they getting away with tier three emissions? Surplus engines? Why are they allowed tier three when everybody else must be tier four? We have a bunch of tier three engines with mechanical fuel pumps but they are under two hundred horsepower.

Isn't Kirovet in bed with Versatile somehow?

How is the recent political climate between Russia and the rest of the world going to affect getting parts and service for this equipment?

I'm not dissing this tractor, it might be the best ever built but just wondering how they plan to prevent this machine turning into a 200,000 dollar lump of steel sitting on the edge of a field because you can't get parts.
 
#52 · (Edited)
From what I can glean on this thread, Kirovet is the largest tractor manufacturer in Russia. Their machines have been sold under different names here, including Belarus. There's another company called MTZ, and their tractors have also been sold under the Belarus name. In Soviet times, the government amalgamated the exports under one brand I guess.

Versatile is owned by Rostelmash, which is a huge Russian combine maker. I suppose Rostelmash wanted to have a complete line of farm equipment so they bought the struggling Versatile company. The Versatile combine is the Rostelmash Torum machine (scaled up to class 7 or 8 which might be why they are so disappointing), which they developed some years ago. It's possible that Rostelmash combines were exported under the Belarus name in the 80s. I don't know.
 
#53 ·
Just saw the Tier 3 question. The reason they can sell Tier 3 engines is because the EPA implemented the standards with a quota or cap for manufacturers. The big domestic companies have reached their cap a long time ago whereas companies like Versatile (only sells Tier 3 in their new 4wds) and these imported machines have not yet, though they certainly will eventually.
 
#54 · (Edited)
Kirovets is its own company in Russia that have been making these big 4 wheel drives for like 50 years.


Belarus (the country) was part of the soviet union located beside Russia and the Ukraine. They have the big factory in Minsk (MTZ) that makes all these smaller series tractors. Which are mostly all under 100hp which they made millions of in the cold war days known for being simple, cheaply built and easy to repair. They still produce the smaller tractors as well as some bigger MFWD over 200hp models along with other things. These are still imported into the Canada and the US but now under the MTZ brand name. Seems depending market they use the Belarus label or MTZ.


Kirovets along with some 4wheel tractors from the Ukraine, combines and other farm equipment were exported to Canada and the US all under the Belarus brand name starting back in the early 70's. I believe the 1st Kroviets came over (under the Belarus name) in the mid 70's. From what I've read over the years the Kirovet guys take offence when you call their tractor a Belarus!


As for the concerns of parts and resale .... for sure a valid issue like with anything uncommon in the local market. These will be huge issues the new generation of Kroviets coming over here will be up against. If they perform and work well they'll do alright. I imagine the engine components could be sourced where ever if need be providing its a common Mercedes Benz engine. As for the rest of it parts are available just depends on how much will be stocked in country and how long it is to get stuff from across the pond. IF they are well built then they shouldn't need .... any parts other then service items :54: So much stuff now a days is built over seas and companies manage in all industries.
 
#55 ·
Many good questions, some addressed by sawyer99.
Let's go one by one.

why are these tractors called Kirovet when the the name on the hood and brochures seem to use different names. Around here they all seemed to be named Balarus.
Those tractors were made for the last 60+ years at the "Kirovets" factory in St Petersburg, Russia.
For marketing purpose, all USSR made tractors were marketed under the same "Belarus" brand.

When you say a hundred thousand tractors do you mean every tractor this company built all the way from the smallest to the largest? That would have a huge effect on parts and service availability as I bet smaller models outnumber these a hundred to one.
Kirovets factory is making only the large articulated 4WD (roughly 300-550 hp). Over 500,000 units were made so far, about 100,000 are still running. Current production stands at about 2,000 units / year, and rising.
If I had to guess, this is the highest production large tractor, or for sure in top 3.

When a customer is considering future support, those numbers are critical. There is strength in numbers. With a large installed base, and more coming into the market, you can be guaranteed of continuous supply down the road, either through the factory and/or from 3rd party sources.
With small volume models, a customer is at the sole mercy of the manufacturer, since there is no economic incentive for 3rd party supplier to invest in low demand parts.

How are they getting away with tier three emissions? Surplus engines? Why are they allowed tier three when everybody else must be tier four?
EPA (Environment Protection Agency, USA) , as well as Canadian Environment Agency are running "low volume exemption program" for Tier 3, valid until 2017/2018.
Most major manufacturers run down their quota long time ago. MTZ still has quota available, but then the tractors will switch to Tier 4 , like everyone else.
So the window of opportunity for the simpler Tier 3 engines is fairly narrow.

Isn't Kirovet in bed with Versatile somehow?
No relations. If anything, they are competitors.
ROSSELMASH is the largest Russian combines manufacturer. They purchased Versatile few years ago. They market Versatile in Russia to compete with Kirovets (not much success). And they market Russian combines under Versatile brand in USA/Canada.
By the way, from independent forums that I read, those are good combines.

How is the recent political climate between Russia and the rest of the world going to affect getting parts and service for this equipment?
If we look back, Belarus / Kirovets tractors and parts were imported to USA/Canada for over 50 years. And even during the cold war, Afghanistan invasion and all other crises parts and tractors were still available. So it's safe to assume that parts availability will still be there, either directly from Russia, or through Canada, Germany, Ukraine or any of the other 50+ countries using the Kirovets.

I'm not dissing this tractor, it might be the best ever built but just wondering how they plan to prevent this machine turning into a 200,000 dollar lump of steel sitting on the edge of a field because you can't get parts.
Again , looking back, there are still dozens of Kirovets running in USA/Canada, and they are 20-30 years old. I guess that's the best proof a company can provide about parts availability.
 

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#66 ·
What would happen if the US closed their borders to Claas (Lexion), Fendt, and other international manufacturers?
1) Good question, but very hypothetical.
In my opinion, this would be "the end of the world as we know it".
Last time I looked, there were no US made tractors under 100 hp. 100-200 hp market, US made tractors are probably less than 40%.
So in short, if this would happen, the agricultural industry in USA would collapse. Period. You tell me how likely would that to heppen ?

2) If such unimaginable would happen, I can tell you how market forces will work: There will allways be enterprising souls who will bring parts from Canada, Germany, Ukraine, Russia etc.

One more question though, what happens in 2017/2018 when they have to go to Final Tier 4 (or god forbid Tier 5) and a potential decision is made its not economical to sell these machines in North America.
1) Worst case: The factory already started making Tier 4 version for Europe. There will be a 5-7000$ cost increase for 2018 Tier 4 models. We believe that the market will bear it, once the model is well established.

2) Best case: There is a good chance that we might qualify for "delayed allowances", meaning we could stretch Tier 3 till 2020.

3) Tier 5. God forbid :)
 
#69 ·
1) Good question, but very hypothetical.
In my opinion, this would be "the end of the world as we know it".
Last time I looked, there were no US made tractors under 100 hp. 100-200 hp market, US made tractors are probably less than 40%.
So in short, if this would happen, the agricultural industry in USA would collapse. Period. You tell me how likely would that to heppen ?

2) If such unimaginable would happen, I can tell you how market forces will work: There will allways be enterprising souls who will bring parts from Canada, Germany, Ukraine, Russia etc.



1) Worst case: The factory already started making Tier 4 version for Europe. There will be a 5-7000$ cost increase for 2018 Tier 4 models. We believe that the market will bear it, once the model is well established.

2) Best case: There is a good chance that we might qualify for "delayed allowances", meaning we could stretch Tier 3 till 2020.

3) Tier 5. God forbid :)

The engines are Mercedes... they are built in/for Europe.... So emisssions in NA aren't a problem for them.

Also a good point to mention, Arie,


The Kirovets tractor plant is part of the Kirovsky Zavod group.... a huge Russian design, engineering, and manufacturing group that builds turbines, tractors, and manufactures steel among other things.
 
#67 ·
All Large class Russian tractors have a glad hand, that's for your service brakes... The tractors have air brakes, 90 to 120 psi just like NA trucks. There's also a provision for your supply air for the trailer.... That's been there since the K700.

Kirovets are named like that because the factory is in Kirov.

When Belarus tractors were sold in Canada, there was a whole lot of confusion... Belarus was a marketing name... that sold Soviet equipment under a common banner. The small tractors are/were built by Minsk Tractor Works of Belarus, their actual brand is "MTZ".

The middle size 4WD is a Ukrainian built tractor.
The big ones, that were sold here as a 7010/7011/7110/7111 are actually a K700 and a K701 Kirovets (look em up on Youtube)....
Terrion is another joint venture with Kirovets for their FWA tractors...
The Belarus combines, marketed as a DON1500 and later a Belarus 8400 are built by Rostselmash, another Russian company from Rostok-von-Dom (sp?) Rostselmash owns Versatile, and builds the rotating cage combine.


One thing to mention... between Russian MFG's there's a huge quality difference... Kirovets are a "premium" brand... the welds are clean, the castings are well done and painted inside and out.... it makes a Rostselmash made machine look like it came from China... MTZ is somewhere in between but closer to the Kirovets.
 
#74 · (Edited)
IF you want pics of the old Kirovets and all the crazy ways they adapted them over the decades there is a facebook page on them. Just hit translate page to get it in English. They pretty much stuck on everything one could think of on those old things.

On there is says they were first designed by the Military in the early 60's as that division got funding. The mechanical engineering part of it was good especially for 50 years ago. They originally came with that 16x8 powershift transmission. But the rest of it as others have mentioned left a lot to be desired for operator comfort! Those old cabs were not rated for a roll over!! Then in the mid 70's the 700, 701 came along with agriculture more in mind among other industries. They continued to build them and revise them up to the K-9000 series.



This below



looks like the new K- 9000 series whats the relationship between the two? Who copied who ... are they the same tractor??? EDIT ... I read back a few pages and yes they are the same.



Some old pics









 
#78 ·
I thought I had asked this before, but I guess I forgot to click on the reply button. This 16/8 powershift transmission, is it like full powershift, or is it 4 ranges with 4 powershifts in each range? If it's the latter, it would be hard to go back to that from full power shift.
 
#80 ·
No it's not a full range powershift, it is four power shifts in each of four speed ranges and in both reverse ranges as well. Suppose it depends on what you are doing, but I have never really found it to be a problem having to select a range and go from there. If you know how and it takes a bit of practice to get it right, you can shift from third to fourth range and back down again on the fly during transport, even if loaded. I wish I could breed one of those trannys into my 875, it's a lot better than the crashbox it came with.

Would a full powershift be better, sure, and I suspect the main reason behind them going CVT, and I will agree the tranny is old technology, but they were well ahead of their time and no one else came close to offering anything similar for many years. IMO it shows the dependability of that tranny, that it is still being offered all these years later, in what would appear to be much the same as original.
 
#86 ·
Actually the gears are designed to "syncroniously mesh during the shifting process from working duties I to II and III to IV" (from the Russian manual I have).



Also, you can dis-engage the transmission from the engine with a lever under the cab... and then there's one more magic lever down there also.


BTW, for timing, setting valves, etc. They actually built in a ratcheting gear mechanism that engages the flywheel... no wrenches needed on the crank to do it... and one man can easily turn the engine. Yet to see that on a NA machine.
 
#82 · (Edited)
Basically what they're doing it looks like on the 9000 series is taking a proven and common power train/frame that has been running for decades. Then bolted on a common modern engine that will meet emissions, some new sheet metal, cab and hydraulics. Suppose it would be like taking a proven dependable jd or cih or whatever tractor from 30 years ago and sticking a modern engine and cab on. The advantages they have is that other than the engine they do it all in house still in Russia where i'm sure production and a material costs are way lower then western countries. Don't manufacturers over here get stuff cast and machined in eastern Europe or China and then shipped back to North America to be assembled.
 
#88 ·
Case ih still use the Fuji Tech transmission it was originally a twin disc 12 speed put into the Steiger Panthers starting in 1983 then in 1987 Case IH took them over and used the Fuji Tech knock off of the Twin Disc they still use the same transmission today however it has different controllers and some heaver parts for the bigger hp and one more gear to make it a 16 speed instead of 12 so the fact that they Kirovet uses an old transmission isn't something new
 
#89 ·
Was within 100km of KTZ warehouse in Hawkesbury, Ontario - so went for a visit today.
Wanted to find out if this was the parts center for North America - apparently as of now it is, with possibility of a Texas one in future.
Wanted to see if parts stock is as small as shown on website - it is, but the shelves were full!
Wanted to have a look at service and parts manuals, didn't get to see as I was assured they are available on website -couldn't view because they are password protected.
All tractors and parts pass through this small facility, but they only had mainly 125 hp tractors on hand. Everything now comes into Montreal and then through Hawkesbury!
Takes approx 6 weeks to get parts by container!
Upon checking their website again and viewing some of their operator manuals - I must say they are very good in explaining how everything works, with lots of diagrams and cross section images!!
They are expecting 4 Kirovets in Feb.
 
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