Calcium and BRIX - Page 27 - The Combine Forum
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post #261 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 04:05 AM
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Let me ask you where those minerals came from in the first place? Are you or your nieghbors spending less on inputs that ten or twenty years ago? If your program is working, then the use of inputs should go down, shouldn't it?
Brent. You have certainly stimulated a good, educational, discussion. Hope you don`t mind that our points of view differ a bit.
Those Minerals, either came about from the decomposition of parent rock, were transported there by water...as in floodplain/delta soil, were deposited by volcanic ash, windblown loess or ground up and made available by glacial activity.
Our ancestors learned that if they farmed soil for too long without returning manure minerals to the soil, that sooner or later (depending on its natural fertility status) it lost fertility.
The Egyptions relied on yearly flooding of the Nile, to lay down fresh nutrients (carried from Volcanic upland areas) onto their land, so that they could continue farming it.
Volcanic ash, from eruptions, occasionally renewed others land.
and the last Ice age renewed much of , Europe and North Americas` soil.
What about the significant areas of the world, that have soils that have decomposed from parent rock lacking in minerals e.g. granite, or sand and are relatively infertile, OR the many areas of the world that have soils in a climate too dry for micro-organisms to function effectively enough to be of much use ...how would YOU make these soils productive, without adding nutrients in some form?

I`m guessing that if you are going to remove nutrients from the soil on your farm, but not replace them by adding nutrients in some form, that you intend to decompose parent rock (which is a relatively slow process), by microbial activity/plant root exudates at a rate that keeps up with the rate at which you remove nutrients.... Be good if it worked.
If you are on a really good, deep, fertile, virgin soil, in a moist climate, which you probably are, you will be o.k. for quite some years. In that rotation, of course, you will need your legumes to fix N, brassicas for disease break and grasses for soil structural integrity.
However, you will still be mining your soil, and one day it will be "exhausted".


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post #262 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 10:22 PM
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interesting points....I have to say I am less skeptical of Brent because he refuses to talk about yields. Most would brag about how much better they are than the neighbors. Also, It would appear to me that Brent is actually looking to try to grow "high quality food". Something most of us don't actually bother with because we are farming for the money, and they don't pay us as much for "Quality" as the do "yield"

As for mining the soil, most of us have already had our soil mined and we can only afford to build at a very slow rate. I have lost lots of ground that I added a couple points of organic matter to and when the land owner died it sold to a neighbor and they started plowing it up. I had lots of money invested in that land and now it is going backwards....what a waist!

Also, Ag includes all aspects of growing food and ingredients. that is all meat, all vegies, all fruit, and all grain. I doesn't hurt anyone for fad diets to happen, because they open peoples minds to other foods. Most don't last long anyway. Food is food and we should all be in favor of everyone who is growing food. I think it is awesome that some people can sell "organic" food for more money than "normal" food....I don't care if it is backed by science or not. As far as I am concerned "Science" changes its mind all the time, so you better eat a little of everything!

Cheers!

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post #263 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-08-2014, 12:33 AM
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Just another note. We shouldn't be nitrogen exporters, we should be carbon exporters. We are carbon base life forms and need carbon, not nitrogen. Low brix= H,O,N high brix= C,H,O.
Once again I'd have to strongly disagree, you seem to have overlooked those compounds called amino acids which go into peptides to make proteins. If you're not exporting N in this form and only exporting carbohydrates (C, H, O) then you really are growing some shitty produce.

As for your many of your other claims some of my (and other's) concerns with them can be summarised at the link below

A Rough Guide to Spotting Bad Science | Compound Interest
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post #264 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-08-2014, 05:41 AM
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If you export something from a self sustaining system, you will need to import to make up the deficit.
The only truly self sustaining system, would be one where every family/tribe on the planet was able to grow their own food in a permaculture type system, on fertile land, integrating a large variety of crops, trees and livestock in a rotational system, ate what they grew and returned all "waste" back to the system. It would be a very primitive lifestyle indeed...No corporates or outside shareholders involved.

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post #265 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-08-2014, 09:48 AM
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adsinaus, I love that list. It kinda reminds me why this thread debated the evolution vs. bible earlier. I think if you really read both, you have to have faith to believe either.

Lynus, I think you are missing many key factors, one of which is that we understand the stars in the sky better than the soil below our feet. We don't know much about the soil despite lots of research lately. Sunlight is added to our system (along with who knows what else from all of the many possible things we can't see). Those forces from "outerspace", and possibly "innerspace", and all of the "dark light, anti- dark light, light, and anti light, etc.....We really don't even understand the process well enough yet to know what it means to be "self-sustaining".

Also, many people here have commented about the elementary grade books....If you continue through higher education, many of those fundamental learning tools, are not completely true. The saying "there are exceptions to every rule" almost always apply. Many of those are taught to help us understand the basics, then they correct that later if you choose to expand your thoughts further.
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post #266 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-08-2014, 10:24 AM
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I thing I am reading in the same book as litefoot if not the same page.Seems to be more exceptions than rules some times.
I would like to see a study that can find more nutrition in organic food than regular food.The Fruits and Nuts here in California were all bent out of shape that university studies could not find a difference between organic and regular food. I can see were you could prefer food that has not been sprayed with fungicide and insecticide almost weekly but to say it has more nutrients has never been proven that I have seen.
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post #267 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-09-2014, 02:50 AM
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The saying "there are exceptions to every rule" almost always apply.
How true!
You`ll get no argument from me on that!
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post #268 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-09-2014, 03:01 AM
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I would like to see a study that can find more nutrition in organic food than regular food.The Fruits and Nuts here in California were all bent out of shape that university studies could not find a difference between organic and regular food. I can see were you could prefer food that has not been sprayed with fungicide and insecticide almost weekly but to say it has more nutrients has never been proven that I have seen.
We should not be arguing Organic vs Conventional at all, because there are "good" and "bad" organic systems and there are "good" and "bad" Conventional systems.
I choose to run a system that is an economically and biologically healthy marriage between conventional and organic and one that suits my particular property and it`s particular climate.
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post #269 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-09-2014, 05:54 AM
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Lynas, what rotation do you work on in normal years?
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post #270 of 275 (permalink) Old 04-09-2014, 06:07 AM
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My ideal rotation here, would be Faba bean, Wheat, Chickpea, Wheat, Sorghum, Mungbean doublecropped into Barley, but poor faba bean prices (except last year) and dodgy mungbean crops have forced me back into a Chickpea, Wheat,Chickpea, Wheat, Sorghum system of late.

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