biosul - maybe it works - Page 4 - The Combine Forum
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post #31 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 10:51 AM
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Brian mostretails can not add elemental sulfur to your fertilizer blend which forces you to apply it separately. What is used to make up the compost and is there any chance it may contain weed seeds?

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post #32 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTee View Post
A few discussions over the weekend with fellow plant nerds.

Unknown timeline and availability of sulphate over time with 1 long term application. It is unknown if the larger pieces will ever breakdown. Will half the amount be available and leach out or 10%. No one knows as moisture, soil type, tillage practice, seeding disturbance, product variability all influence availability.

The bioanalysis of the compost is unavailable and at the temp of the compost being made crop diseases such as clubroot will survive. The dirt is coming from AB after all. Anyone buying this product should be absolutely demanding a full analysis from an accredited lab.

For the typical canola wheat rotation you still need to add sulphate form and adding 30 lbs to canola provides the 10 pounds for the wheat the following year in the canola plant matter breakdown. Sulfur needs only then to be added once every 2 years. Biosul or any es in that situation has no practical use.


The amount of es added to a blend is miniscule for a long term rotation in a maintenance program egs 10 to 15 pounds of 150 micron or smaller product. The added cost to apply is negligible. Especially considering that when you grow canola, sulphate must be applied anyway. What are you really trying to save?
I am glad I am not a plant nerd as seemed to have plenty of other things to discuss on the lake watching Canada Day fireworks and enjoying the beautiful weather - some people really do over-analyze things. Back in the Winter(when it cold out and more sensible time to deal with stuff like this) I did get get an accredited analysis of this stuff and posted the results - I could send you a copy of the certificate if have your email. If you concern yourself with the disease/weed possibilities you really must not sleep well at night as there many other ways that this could be spread. If you think sulphate "has" to be applied when you grow canola I believe you are wrong as I am growing a fair bit of canola this yr on land that has not had sulphate applied for at least 4 years and plant tissue samples(results posted which started this thread) would suggest that I have more available sulphur than a good farmer right next to it with typical wheat/canola/malt barley rotation. It will be interesting what soil samples suggest this Fall even though they supposedly mean nothing with respect to S? When you say that spreading cost is negligible I believe I did see one of your posts that suggested how boring it was with an airseeder that runs itself. It funny as I consider anytime I am running an airseeder to be a cost and a job that is not negligible - IE the more lbs of product/acre or trips, the more cost. If you want more evidence that this sort of thing could actually work we do have another decent farmer in the area who applies Bio-waste all winter to land(not something I could or want to do) who is a multi-year winner of Pioneer high yield competition. I am glad I am not the only one who could not understand that USask "study", but believe there more holes in that the leaky raft full of new Canadians that we towed off the lake yesterday.

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post #33 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 12:40 PM
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I think this product is a decent option just like both of the others and I don't think any of them are the perfect option used alone. A combination of any two in a long term plan seems like the way to go from my point of view.

Where I hang out in the spring we had this product put on something like 2500 acres but continued with the regular sulphate down the seed row plan on the canola acres being planted, none of which received the broadcast elemental.

Since we never bring pure urea into storage anymore anyhow, I think I would personally prefer blending some elemental S into the nitrogen destined for the mid row banders for every acre. Those blends currently have either phosphate or a combination of it and potash included to help with the fact that we would be beyond limited out on seed row nutrients using a single disc drill.

Using a 500 bushel tank in the nose of the 7950 allows us to carry quite a bit more weight on the cart just from the bulk density increases of the bander blends verses pure urea. Any time we are planting canola the N onboard the cart always gets a bit of compensation from the N analysis in the sulphate sulphur going down in the seed row blend so that helps with the lbs of N per fill. When we shift to soybeans we have capacity to plant for a very long stretch, so its only a small hinderance for extra fills when planting cereals.

I think what they spread will work fine, but there are some big pieces of sulphur out there. I could see them easily after I think the rest might have blown away after a management mistake with a harrow ahead of the drill on a 1000 acre field of canola stubble.
.

Last edited by Haystack; 07-03-2017 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Typo
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post #34 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by brazil08 View Post
I am glad I am not a plant nerd as seemed to have plenty of other things to discuss on the lake watching Canada Day fireworks and enjoying the beautiful weather - some people really do over-analyze things. Back in the Winter(when it cold out and more sensible time to deal with stuff like this) I did get get an accredited analysis of this stuff and posted the results - I could send you a copy of the certificate if have your email. If you concern yourself with the disease/weed possibilities you really must not sleep well at night as there many other ways that this could be spread. If you think sulphate "has" to be applied when you grow canola I believe you are wrong as I am growing a fair bit of canola this yr on land that has not had sulphate applied for at least 4 years and plant tissue samples(results posted which started this thread) would suggest that I have more available sulphur than a good farmer right next to it with typical wheat/canola/malt barley rotation. It will be interesting what soil samples suggest this Fall even though they supposedly mean nothing with respect to S? When you say that spreading cost is negligible I believe I did see one of your posts that suggested how boring it was with an airseeder that runs itself. It funny as I consider anytime I am running an airseeder to be a cost and a job that is not negligible - IE the more lbs of product/acre or trips, the more cost. If you want more evidence that this sort of thing could actually work we do have another decent farmer in the area who applies Bio-waste all winter to land(not something I could or want to do) who is a multi-year winner of Pioneer high yield competition. I am glad I am not the only one who could not understand that USask "study", but believe there more holes in that the leaky raft full of new Canadians that we towed off the lake yesterday.

I am very leery of any University studies on nutrients and their responses. Nutrients on these plots are over applied because " we don't want them to be a limiting factor" and as a result have built up over the years and really skews nutrient studies. This came straight from the horses mouth (NDSU in my case). Not like the real world at all where we have to make a business decision on how much to apply. I'm skeptical about the "bio" part, but it seems like the discussion has been steered to AMS versus elemental or biosul rather than elemental versus biosul. I would be very interested in any ongoing discussion/ideas/results that you have on this topic.

BrianTee is a "where's the replicated data guy" until he disagrees with something based upon personal experience (Flax rooting depth etc). I've learned a lot over the past few years from his posts and I am confident he doesn't stir the pot just to stir the pot... Whereas I actually enjoy getting people riled up for no reason.
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post #35 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 05:20 PM
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Just looking for answers, if personal emotion is kept in check, this site usually gets there. The BS, and not the fertilizer kind, is getting pretty thick in the ag retail world and does not appear to be slowing down. Sure, put boron on your drought canola, when the only thing that will help is rain. Maybe some pollen hydrator. Boost your yields!!

How do you sort thru this stuff finding that wheat in the mountain of chaff if not asking for good repeatable data, or at least a scientific explanation as to why that can be verified, and most importantly leaving the feeling out of it?

Posting here does carry a certain amount of personal/emotional/professional risk no matter how carefully you type out the question or comment.

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post #36 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 07:55 PM
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Ya I agree with Brian on the boron and the snake oils thing when rain is what's really needed BUT, this is really an elemental vs sulphate discussion. To me Elemental when applied every few years clearly is a better option. I usually apply close to what it would cost to use sulphate but end up with 3x the sulphur. Don't need to worry about adding it to my blends on any given year and the tissues seem to back it up. We started using elemental after reading enough positive feedback from SWman. I'm pretty sure we should have been applying more sulphur to non oil seed crops in the past but now with elemental I don't have to worry about it because I know we got it. Now back to BioSul, that was a no brainer to me because I could apply it for the same price per LB as I could spread Tiger 90 without having to do any work (and yes, doing the work to me is worth a lot). Sure you're relying on a 6 year supply which feels a little brave but they have a good amount of tissue test data that has given me enough confidence to go ahead. We will see I suppose but I didn't apply any AMS to our canola this year after putting down Bio Sul last fall and it looks great and tissue test have all indicated out sulphur availability has been good to great.
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Last edited by kauppfarms; 07-03-2017 at 08:01 PM.
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post #37 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
http://www.usask.ca/soilsncrops/conf...06docs/041.pdf


Elemental didn't match the ammonium sulfate 2 years out. Third year the lucky charm?

That's a tough train to get on. Front 5 years of S while supplementing the first 2?
Not buying into this whole bio-whatever thing but just got a question about NA agriculture. When using ams do you factor in the cost of the acidifying effect. We can buy dirt cheap ams which is a by product of all the nickel mines in West Oz. But for every tonne we apply we know there is a cost in the extra lime we will need to buy and spread. When the cheap ams first came on the market everyone jumped on it even though it was awful **it to spread due to the very low cost of N. Now we know how bad it lowers Ph we only use it to get the S we need on Canola and the rest of our N on Canola and Cereals is from Urea or other sources. I guess it may not be such an issue if you have naturally Alkaline dirt but most of my state is struggling with Ph 5 and less to depth.
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post #38 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-03-2017, 10:33 PM
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Ozzie a lot of the soil in our area is basic or a ph close to 8 and could use some acidification to bring it down so nutrients are more available.
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post #39 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-04-2017, 12:10 AM
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As SouthernSK has already indicated, our calcareous soils tend to be higher pH - liming is rare in western Canada. I'm sure there are areas that I'm not aware of but the only low pH soils I have seen in roughly 40 years in the industry were soils that had been extremely heavily manured.

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post #40 of 53 (permalink) Old 07-04-2017, 12:18 AM
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Responding to my comment that the S soil test is meaningless on calcareous soils

Quote:
Originally Posted by stsdavew
Not completely true... If they show high then it is high, anything else is meaningless.
I'm sorry - not looking to start a pissing match but that is simply not true.

The S soil test is meaningless on calcareous soils
. Full stop.


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