Micronutrients - Page 2 - The Combine Forum
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 10:55 AM
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Primers on conola at seeding, zinc in cereals especially durum at flower realy realy responds well, conola with boron at gly pre burn... still playing with that one and tpa on 11-52 is a game changer.
What is tpa ?


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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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What is tpa ?

http://www.cropweb.com/assets/files/...7CACB3C28E.pdf

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 12:05 PM
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The problem I see with some of these products in a jug, is they are attempting a one size fits all approach, And the price goes up due to extraction, refinement, and packaging. If someone came to your farm and told you that all you need is this particular NPKS fertility blend, would you buy it? Probably not, because you know from experience on your farm that it isn't going to fill all your fertility needs.

It all depends on what you have in your soil to begin with. Find a lab that will spend the time to identify what micros you already have, and in what ratios. Pull some tissue samples throughout the season and try to identify what plant deficiencies you might be experiencing. If your low on P maybe you need more 11-52, or maybe you just need a little zinc. A little molydenum goes a long ways in helping the plant metabolize N. Many of the trace elements need to be present as they are catalysts to fire an enzymatic process to metabolize a macro nutrient. A plant will withstand periods of reduced solar light if it's Magnesium needs are being met, as Magnesium is the center of the chlorophyll molecule. A little fulvic acid seems to help also if it's cloudy or smokey for extended periods of time. Many of the traces must be present for cell formation and function. Plants will withstand drought conditions better with a full spectrum of micros present, as plants don't necessarily take up water because they are thirsty, they take up water to trans locate nutrients and the more nutrient dense the water is, the less water they take up and transpire. To much N and plants will become water logged and less nutrient dense, thus making them more susceptible to disease and insects that must be sprayed for. There is a side effect to any application made to a crop/soil. Do you really think a fungicide is only killing the pathogens? There are numerous studies out there if you look that identify certain trace elements having direct control properties against certain pathogenic organisms. Dr. Don Huber did a lot of research in this area.

There are a lot of inexpensive products available that naturally contain trace elements. Soft rock phos is a good example. It contains more calcium than anything, than P, than 60 some odd different trace elements. There is a product out of Utah called Azomite that is basically just mined trace elements left behind from an ancient under water volcanic eruption. I know a farmer in western Wyoming that sees huge responses in his sandy soil from applying trace mineralized salt from RSC (redmond salt and clay) also out of Utah. There are also products on the market to help with P solubility and tie up prevention. I see a big response from this type of product due to the soils on our farm naturally being high in Ca and P.


As for third party, unbiased, trial studies, I don't hardly believe they exist anymore. Every university is on the dole from the chemical companies, and if you have enough money you can eventually come up with whatever data you require. In some circumstances the researcher may decline to even test a product because the big boys threaten to pull funding.The fertilizer lobbies have a tremendous control over what data and products we as farmers see. Small companies that might actually have a farmer's best interest at heart, can't afford to jump through all legislative hoops, so they exist in an almost covert underground environment that makes it very easy for the big players to make fun of and shame should they gain any traction in the market. There is no better testing environment for your farm, than your farm. Install yield monitors, do test plots, read, study, don't be afraid to trial something because it might not work, BE YOUR OWN AGRONOMIST, nobody has more interest in the success of your operation than you.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 12:14 PM
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What is tpa ?

Thermal Polyaspartate. It works against calcium. It is often used as an anti scaling agent. I'm assuming in this application it's being used to help prevent P tie up.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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CF, there are studies that show that certain micro nutrients can help a plant metabolize macro nutrients.

I use ESN to control N uptake over the growing season. Most of my blends have 50-60% ESN. This really comes in handy during yield set.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 12:30 PM
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Helmach, you said it’s a game changer, what are you seeing ? Do you sell it ?

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 12:56 PM
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So now that the crop is up and seems like its on its way, my sales rep is calling to pitch some snake oil. Talking about 2 micro-nutrient products - one called Awake and the other from Omex or something.

I used green with envy back in 2016 and I dont know if it worked or not.

Anybody consistently using these products and what do you put them on? Have you noticed any improvements at all?
2013 I saw good results with micro mix which is a blanket micro nutrient product a little bit of everything(similar to a lot of products out there). But we sprayed at perfect timing as canola was just starting to bolt and growing conditions were close to perfect that year. I measured with the scale on the grain cart that fall and saw 4 +/- bu an acre gain. That was on our best canola crop ever. Since that year Iíve tried to get pay back and itís been hard to get results at all when Spray timing is off and itís a dry year there are no gains to be made with foliar fertilizer imo. So personally Iíve seen payback one year in six and counting. We have no real deficiencies on our soil tests so there are no big reasons to apply micronutrients on our soil regularly. On a big crop that is actively growing and pulling everything it can out of the ground fast I can see it working again because our gumbo clay soil canít give up enough nutrients to keep up with the crop growth. So imo a 60+ bushels canola crop could use it and give good returns if applied at the right time. 50 bu or lower donít bother which at our house is 80% + of the time.
If I can get my canola to suck up 130 lbs of actual n every year Iíll probably need some extra micros of some sort but until then Iím not going to blanket apply any snake oil.

Mother Nature is really the reason itís not going to consistently give results. Imo
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 05:41 PM
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◊2 too everything customfarmer said. every nutrient is needed in a ratio to one another, if your short on even one nutrient plants fail to preform the desired functions to grow a healthy plant. if your short on n you can expect a decrease In vegetation and yield. phos a decrease In root development and photosynthesis (green) and sulphur a decrease In protein levels... we all know these to be true so why is it hard to believe that if your having bad seed set or seed formation you may be short on copper? or stunted not fully develped plants and roots... low on zinc or how about bad nodulation in legumes, dont always blame the rhizoba they need molybdenum to function well. This can also go the other way aswell as if too much of one can limit anothers availability. ex high levels of phos in comparable to the ratios can limit zinc availability and in pretty well all of sask with hi ph soils that further dampens zinc availability you can see where this is important. or hi mg levels reduce potassium availability so even tho soil tests say you have lots... mg may be stoping it from getting to the plant. i honesty belive that a healthy plant pays back more returns and can fight/through chemical, drought and disease stress far better than the current fungicide path we are on. Also now how are you delivering these nutrients? fulvic acid added to the tank carrier can make dramatic effects on the efficiency do to the molecular size of the molecule being able to absorb trace amounts then translocate directly through the mitochondria of the cell membrane in the leaf tissue instead of being uptake by roots.

as for tpa or thermo poly asparte and what it does for me is it produces a weak bond to 11-52 po4+ being it is a negatively charged protein. the weak covalent bond is then broken down and the plant has an available form of phos not tied up in the strong cal and mg bond. it greatly reduced the tie up or bonding of 11-52 to cal and mg in my hi ph soils 7.6 to 8.1 and is dirt cheap. no I do not sell it. dries in 1 min after it hits the truck... only thing is you have to rinse augar out after everyload... do not want it dried on fighting and tube but a 1000l tote and 2 in make quick work.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 05:42 PM
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treating the phos
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 06-15-2018, 10:22 AM
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Good info on TPA, never heard of it before. Chemistry within the soil is where i beleive time should be invested vs applying products externally. That comes back to putting the $$ in the ground.



I did spray my flax Wednesday and added some foliar to the mix near the end of the tank. Full rate Buctril M on 2-4"high flax. Not really expecting to see a yield increase but one of the things i wanted to look for is if the flax tolerated the chemical better, when i checked yesterday i couldn't tell a difference. So next observation will be if plants perk up sooner. I do think with the right combination of weather events the foliar may trigger a yield response, but if it does this year i don't plan on going all in next year. I would rather use caution, run some more trials in the future and invest more time to look at how those micronutrients that may have got a response via foliar could be soil incorporated in the future.

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