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Covercrop mixtures for the North

13K views 73 replies 16 participants last post by  Daner 
#1 ·
Being as it is sort of cold and miserable out I figured I would see if we can get an updated cover crop thread. I'm thinking specifically North Dakota and the Prairie Provinces minus the red river valley:

I myself have only drilled in crops after canola or lentils, but am looking for input on a few issues:

How have the airplanes been doing? Are there many guys using planes? With average first frost being around Sept 20th there aren't many times where I can get a full 6+weeks of growth.

It seems like diversity is the key, but are there any tried and true 3 way mixes that have worked well? I know it is a loaded question... I can buy premixed 7+ way mixes and add in oats or rye as a base, but that can get to be $30 acre + application costs.

I know that a guy should know his goals for cover cropping and I think that I am close to figuring out how to attack it, but are there any good resources that we can link to this thread?

If a guy was to gut a high clearance sprayer to make a cover crop seeder is there enough work or enough of a need in your areas to make that work as a possible custom seeding operation?

Success stories and Failure stories?


Thanks,

Phil
 
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#3 ·
I would love to try a plane but the planes are busy with fungicide when I want them. I'm not fussy but they don't want to put the spreaders for nothing.

Cheap is #1 for me, I am planting radish on a 26 acre field for seed, so we will see how that turns out because this dollar plus per pound don't work IMO

One thing I tried this fall and is dirt cheap was mixing a little corn in. It is a very strong plant, the top will freeze off but the root is almost unstoppable. I put mine in pretty late so the growth point never did get above ground. I would guess the average depth of the corn roots were 20" when they got buried in snow.

Oats definitely is cheap

I tried sunflowers and they were stronger than I would have guessed

Her is what I was trying to achieve this fall
I wanted to be under 10$ per acre total for application and everything. I used uncleaned seed. But had very clean seed to work with.

15# oats. Dollarish.
4# sunflowers. 60 cents
5# corn. 25 cents
7# 2 year old treated soybeans.??? Not going to get planted anymore, if you look around you can find this stuff cheap. Germ was about 65%, I think mostly cause it was warm it turned out ok.
10# winter wheat. Low falling numbers and was worth 1.50 bu

This was enough to get pretty good cover and was fairly diversified IMO for cheap.

Would it be nice to put together a better nitrogen package? You bet! But I did get a good soil building cocktail for dirt cheap.

I will work on making this better but given the economics of it as of now I got no extra money to waste and for 20+dollars I can buy a pretty good shot of nitrogen that I am still better equipped to do.

The high clearance sprayer is something that when Trump makes commodity prices great again I will be doing without question. I am thinking along the likes of a walker 44 dedicated to a valmar 4400 spreader box I have. I will make the booms 60' to match my planter.

I keep my eyes peeled because this seems to be evolving very fast and I'm a little cautious because there is lots of great ideas coming through the pipeline
 
#5 ·
I like that mix! I would assume that for corn, sunflowers, and soybeans that they have to be put in the dirt to germinate? or will they sprout on top?

I don't mind paying a little for radishes and turnips as long as I can add my cheaper bulk seeds to it. I had some corn and sunflowers laying around this fall, but didn't even think of adding them to the mix. Right now I'm on a rye/winter wheat/clover kick as the idea of growing for 2-3 weeks in the spring before terminating really appeals to me especially with the surplus moisture we've had.

I've seen pictures of sprayers that have 5 of those little 12V spreaders attached to the booms and they will apply fungicide and small seeded cover crop at the same time. Whether it is a spinner spreader or air boom setup I just want it to go 120' to follow the sprayer path.
 
#4 ·
In my northern locale average killing frost is sept 15. As far as a cover after harvesting a cash crop is not in the cards, unless it was Polish canola, or a forage crop. Even then some years there's not enough moisture to germinate a cover. You'd be best to broadcast clover into a winter wheat crop in the spring or something like that. I've mixed a winter cereal with my spring seeded cereal forages for fall and spring grazing. I've thought about mixing fall rye or winter wheat and sweetclover with wheat or barley. Take off the cereal for forage then graze the regrowth and terminate the following spring or let grow and take as a forage crop the next year. If you're strictly grain in a short season and don't do any fallow, incorporating a cover is a challenge. Even for myself with cows the extra buggering around and negligible benefits makes it hard to justify. My feeling is that to see any big benefit of a cover it needs a long enough growing period and should be either grazed or lightly incorporated to boost microbial activity. As well, the more diverse a mix the better ( brassicas, legumes, and grasses). Lots of benefits to cover crops but I fear it has become a fad the seed sellers are capitalizing on. If you have to spend $30 for a "mix" of wonder plants they have won.
 
#6 ·
It is definitely harder with our shorter seasons. I do enough goofy crops that besides radishes and clovers I can definitely bring the costs down although I still have to figure out how to properly mix them together (ratios etc.). To make it work I think applying the seed into standing crop via whatever method is available will have to be the primary way of doing it. If I am not completely broke during next growing season I am going to have a plane fly some on standing springwheat in the middle of July (with hopes of getting 1 rain between then and the middle of August)
 
#8 ·
Yes that is what I was thinking of. I saw a picture of a Hagie sprayer that had what looked like a factory kit to do something similar, but then once you take the liquid tank off of the sprayer then you have logistics issues of needing to spray, but the sprayer needs 4 hours to switch back over to liquid... Although I swore i would never own one, A JD 4920 with a dry box has to be coming down in price and I could also use it for fertilizer spreading which I never do. (midrow banding)
 
#11 ·
This year I underseeded red clover in 5 ac of my winter wheat. Broadcasted ~ 10lb late March. Crop was clean despite forgoing in crop spraying. Harvested July 27(not typical). I didn't think I was going to get any clover but it finally took off after harvest. The thistle did too so I sprayed it out early Sept. I was happy with the growth. Peak N is supposed to be right before budding. Seems like the rule of thumb for all kinds of crop is N is highest at the end of vegetative growth. Just need to get my insurance on board.

If I were to seed anything in the fall it would have to include something that will survive the winter to get some spring growth. Winter wheat is cheap now and I have seed. Rye seems interesting but the wheat is bird in hand so to speak. Have some oats in the bin but there are a couple wild ones mixed in. I'm looking for small seeded legumes for ease of seeding and germination. Not quite sure where to go. Clover is expensive($250 for 50lb) and cash crop legumes are large heavy seeds. Anybody have a price on vetch?

Those spreaders on the sprayer booms look awesome. With the now mandatory fungicide at heading I wouldn't be afraid to go in earlier to seed. I wonder how well the booms handle that much weight.
 
#15 ·
Don't know about vetch, but would be interested if you find any. Of all of the things discussed it is the legumes that I'm the most leary about due to all of the disease issues in our area. If legumes in a cc mixture however small keep the diseases going then may have to really limit them. I'm hoping legume diseases will be minimized by covercrops and rotations....

Those little spreaders on the booms would probably be easy to mount up, but basically limit you to small seeded crops. Ideally i would want/need to be able to get 100+ acres a fill out of a setup. Depending upon mixtures used I would need a 60-120 cubic foot box (50-100 bu). But then I think that would be too heavy to add on to a sprayer without removing the liquid system...
 
#13 ·
I am quite a ways south and east of your area (a lot...) but we do have some similar cover crop challenges to face due to the fact not much gets harvested before mid. Sept.


Guys have tried helicopter and plane spreading on corn late August/early September, but found that a lot of seeds got caught in canopy... Not much has been done with high clearance sprayer around here, so not sure how well that will turn out either, but should be better if using drop tubes.


Have seeded winter rye/ hairy vetch after corn silage, and can even do it after ultra early corn in our area (like 85 RM) but would be at expense of some potential yield. Did mix in some radish the year prior but it did not make a large root by time it froze, so does have limitations. If going straight rye can seed later than a mix within reason.


Here the biggest boost would be under seeding early and getting it going in the right variety of corn before it gets tall, as in a short stature plant and in June, but that does carry some risk as well...


Easy to do covers after an early harvested crop, but once you hit mid August the options become very limited.
 
#14 ·
I can buy premixed 7+ way mixes and add in oats or rye as a base, but that can get to be $30 acre + application costs.
I guess I don't get it. How on earth do you ever get back $30/acre planting what could easily be described as "weeds" on your field, only to have them hopefully die in a month or two?

I understand having something living in the soil, but do you not have natural weeds and volunteers growing after harvest?

Plus, who has time for all of this? I could think of a hundred other things to do when the crop is off like picking stones and drainage that for sure will have a benefit down the road.

Not trying to say it's wrong, but I just don't see a payback.:confused:
 
#16 ·
30$ is hard to achieve if you ask me but if you get into a clean field and can run a good cover crop that was well put together goes a long ways to keep a field clean.
It helps keep moisture from being concentrated and keeps it more even across the field.
They help water infiltration and holding capacity.
You could if the stars line up gain 20# nitrogen and scavenge up other nutrients to make them more available
It also helps the decomposition of the residue. I know that sounds backwards.

So the money spent could bring a worth while return. But we are all trying to figure out ways to make it cheap and simple as possible to get every last dollar out if it.

Some have dropped buying fertilizer and made huge spraying cuts so not something to just ignore.
 
#20 ·
Biggest benefit is building OM%, which does tie in to how much nutrients your soil can hold. Location does have a major factor to play, as a full season crop alone will use much of the available growing period for a plant, but by themselves may not be able to build a lot of OM alone. They will stimulate other biological activity that may provide a benefit to the next crop, so could help with disease pressure but species choice needs to be examined so you aren't planting something that is a host for cash crop diseases.


I don't believe cover cropping can totally eliminate fertilizer, but may be able to lower the amount applied, and also may allow it to be better used. Around here we are just beginning to experiment with cover cropping, so getting a base line soil test will go a long ways towards seeing the end results. Being a longer growing season here we may see a larger benefit than what someone in a very northern location would, and for us does open up some forage options for livestock which I feel can help a farm out in the long run as well.


For us under seeding a cover into corn could provide a "smother" which out competes weeds, or at least keeps the later ones at bay, but isn't the same as spraying the field either... I guess weeds can be a cover sometimes but being very aggressive they often require quick control to prevent them from making seeds, where as many covers provide a longer control window as they act more like a cash crop.


I was skeptical of how a cover could work a few years back, and still today would like one that grow as long as possible and even be able to be grazed or used for forage, but I know a lot more about them than just a few years back. I remember dad saying "Cover crops will never work here" a couple years ago, even though his grandpa would have relied on them in the days before synthetic fertilizer. I was hoping he would have been able to see my under seeding corn experiment this coming summer but he passed away in mid December so won't get that chance but was glad he could see a little of what we have done so far with them. Biggest result he would have seen was the rye following silage, he got to help move bales off that field this spring and was surprised by how well the soybeans did following it even though they were planted late.
 
#31 ·
Biggest benefit is building OM%, which does tie in to how much nutrients your soil can hold. Location does have a major factor to play, as a full season crop alone will use much of the available growing period for a plant, but by themselves may not be able to build a lot of OM alone. They will stimulate other biological activity that may provide a benefit to the next crop, so could help with disease pressure but species choice needs to be examined so you aren't planting something that is a host for cash crop diseases.


I don't believe cover cropping can totally eliminate fertilizer, but may be able to lower the amount applied, and also may allow it to be better used. Around here we are just beginning to experiment with cover cropping, so getting a base line soil test will go a long ways towards seeing the end results. Being a longer growing season here we may see a larger benefit than what someone in a very northern location would, and for us does open up some forage options for livestock which I feel can help a farm out in the long run as well.


For us under seeding a cover into corn could provide a "smother" which out competes weeds, or at least keeps the later ones at bay, but isn't the same as spraying the field either... I guess weeds can be a cover sometimes but being very aggressive they often require quick control to prevent them from making seeds, where as many covers provide a longer control window as they act more like a cash crop.



I was skeptical of how a cover could work a few years back, and still today would like one that grow as long as possible and even be able to be grazed or used for forage, but I know a lot more about them than just a few years back. I remember dad saying "Cover crops will never work here" a couple years ago, even though his grandpa would have relied on them in the days before synthetic fertilizer. I was hoping he would have been able to see my under seeding corn experiment this coming summer but he passed away in mid December so won't get that chance but was glad he could see a little of what we have done so far with them. Biggest result he would have seen was the rye following silage, he got to help move bales off that field this spring and was surprised by how well the soybeans did following it even though they were planted late.
In my area, we notice the same thing. For spring establishment of a perennial grass for seed production, it is important to plant a cover crop with it. A cash crop if we can swing it. There are a couple of very invasive creeping ground covers that will smother the grass. The chemicals allowed, and a few that are not, do more damage to the grass than they do to the actual weed. However, the low creeping weeds do not fair well in shaded conditions. A broad leaf cover works very well to control with great efficacy.

Some years ago I posted a picture thread here about planting fescue for seed under soybeans. The fields that were planted under the soybeans had no sharps point weed pressure. The field we did not plant soybeans over, lost a percentage of the field to sharps point and reduced production on another percentage. Not to mention the pest insects and mice that the creeping ground cover weeds harbor.
 
#23 ·
8850, I seeded about 170 acres of cover crops into winter wheat stubble after harvest this year. I think it was harvested around July 22 (could have been earlier if the peas hadn't dried down so fast), but I didn't get it seeded until around August 7. I had seed that I had bought 4 years ago that I had intended on planting after harvest then but never got around to it. It was annual rye grass, tillage radish, and crimson clover. Each of them were in their own bags, so three of us just dumped a bag into the air cart auger on the drill to "blend" it. When I ran out of that blend, I still had a tote of the full season cover crop we planted in June on some fields this year. Here is the place we ordered it from: Soil Health/Cover Crops - Agassiz Seed & Supply - West Fargo, ND & Eagan, MN. We got the grazing brand mix. Both mixes went nuts this fall, but we had an unusually warm fall. The radishes I pulled in October were well over a foot long. Where I seeded the Agassiz blend, I couldn't see the winter wheat stubble. None of the cover crop completely froze/went dormant before the snow finally showed up in late November. I can't remember when the first freeze was, but I think it was somewhere in the mid 20 degree range. Later we had freezes into the upper teens, but the fields stayed grass green when it warmed back up.

I think we had a little rain the last week of July, but that was pretty much it until sometime into September. I thought I was wasting my time when I was seeding the cover crop as it had been at least 10 days from the previous rain (which was around 0.30 if I recall), but it seemed to work out just fine. I seeded a little over 1" deep, and the stand looked great. If I had seeded right after harvesting the winter wheat, we easily could have hayed at least part of the cover crop. It would have been close to 2' tall by October. I know a guy that had cover crop after harvest north of Beulah that was hayed, and they got right at 2 bales to the acre.

As far as costs go, the blend we bought from Agassiz ended up being $22 for the seed. I was annoyed because I had to buy it through a retailer even though I never talked to them and Agassiz delivered the totes directly to the farm. I think they quoted me at $18 an acre for the seed, so the retailer made some easy money! I am sure I could throw a blend together with leftover/old seed around the farm, but finding a way to blend it is the trick. I am a firm believer in the larger the variety the better, so mixing 5+ different varieties together doesn't interest me. Right now I would just rather auger the tote into the cart and go.
 
#26 ·
You ran into the "retailer" thing too. That extra month must've made huge difference I wasn't impressed with my radishes, but I've been told that even if they look like nothing they still root 2 feet. did you notice anything going to seed?

A couple years in a row my dad has had a Qtr of land that has had half of it seeded to cover crops. This year we could tell the line where the cover crops started and stopped and it appeared to be about 5 bushels better, but I hesitate saying that too loudly because nothing was replicated and it was a 1 year trend. I'll be excited for this next year to see if there is a noticeable difference one way or the other. The soil conservation picked his blend and it has peas, sunflowers, lentils, millet, radish, turnips, and oats. This year even with the warm fall the millet didn't do anything, but everything else did okay.
 
#25 ·
8850, I am right with you on my goals for cover crops. Our OM is low to scary-low on just about all of our fields. I think 2.5% is maybe the highest number we have, and more than a few fields are under 2%. The faster we can raise those numbers, the better. However, in the short term, I am worried that the cover crops are going to use more water than I like for next years cash crop. You guys get more rain than we do (especially lately), so I would be less concerned in your area. I also plan on grazing the cover crop on as many fields as possible to help speed up the OM-building process. This was the first year that we took some acres out of a cash crop and seeded a full season cover crop. We will be doing the same this coming year as well. We hay the cover crop and then graze the regrowth later in the fall. It worked great this year as the hay in our area was terrible due to the dry spring. The cover crop did really well as we had good rains during the middle part of the summer.

After my experience this year with covers after harvest, I have a plan going forward. Every acre of winter wheat will get seeded right behind the combine, or as soon as I have a window to do it as I drive both the combine and the do the seeding. We plant peas first in the spring, too, so all of those acres will be seeded to covers as well. We were done with both winter wheat and pea harvest before August each of the last two seasons. I will also be seeding the winter wheat the first week of September (as long as it works out) going forward to try to push harvest a little earlier yet. It isn't feasible to get covers on every acre, every year for me, but I hope to have close to 1/3 of the acres covered each year for the next few years.
 
#29 ·
I have a goal of 1/2 my acres within a few years, but am shooting for 1/4 for next year. Oats, rye, and WW are my organic matter and fungi builders and I want those as a base from what I can tell. turnips and radishes supposedly help and I suppose I better have those or atleast have some strips with them in the mix to see if they are worth it. I don't know if compaction is that big of an issue here. I've seen turnips cause some funny problems the following years on some neighbors fields. Having sunflowers and lentils in the mix looks to be promising. It'll be fun trying some of this out.
 
#45 ·
My problem with the spray and seed or the harvest and seed units is the capacity of the seeding unit. Its a great idea but way to much stopping to refill the seeding unit.

I keep trying to nail down a good system for cover cropping behind injected manure. Adding seed to the slurry gets it to deep as does in front of the plow, so really seeding behind the plow with a light roller to cover it may do the trick. Somewhere in the mix I need to level off the ground if I were to no till into this cover as the injectors leave it rougher than I desire. Next issue lies in where to put the seeding tank, in back its going to get ****ified, not good. Three point isn't an option as contact with the pump would be inevitable. All this has to be accomplished while keeping peak manuverability.

Still thinking.
 
#47 ·
Too bad putting seed in the injected slurry did'nt work. That is a great idea. You probably have regulations that would'nt allow you to have any slurry on top? I know it is not maximum use of the slurry nutrients to let any lay on top, but if only a small percentage could and you could ad the seed right at the top of the injector point with an air box, I wonder if it would work?

 
#46 ·
depends what you want the cover to do.

for us small grains can dry up or make the soil tight.

I have tried late summer radish, vetch, peas, beans, oats, clover, hay, most of them never had enough growth to do anything. vetch came back next spring 1 year very thick in spots but not enough to do a test plot on them.

the "easiest" way for me to do it is bring alfalfa back into rotation. after a couple years then don't take the first cutting and just strip till into it. if its a good stand then there will be plenty of nitrogen for the corn and plenty of roots to hold the soil.
 
#52 ·
Imagine trying to run that through the combine...


Hope I never see that in a field, would have to carry the chainsaw in the combine.


If it weren't for aggressively setting seed, quite a few weeds would make great cover crops to build soil OM, after all that seems to be what nature intended them to do. The bad part comes when nature decides the cash crop is a great place for them to go to work.
 
#54 ·
Id like to try some radishes. Where i want to try them has old shallow tile. Like 2ft. Maybe less. Would they destroy the tile ? The reason i would like try it there is thats where i plan on chopping corn silage.

Not many cover crops around me but guys are trying and making some headway...
 
#55 ·
There has been some evidence that radish can reach and effect tile. I think it depends on the area and soil types, as well as how much water is in the tile at the time the radish reaches it. We have a lot of 3' average depth tile here and though we have had perennial tall fescue effect the tile, even growing radish for seed, we have not as of yet found enough radish reaching the tile and filling it with root. But then, "here", by the time the radish has made it that far, there is no water in the tile whatsoever. So there's nothing there for the radish to gain anything, where the soil surrounding the tile has any nutrient values that may be that deep.
 
#59 ·
The fine roots of the radish gets into the tile and break off. This gathers into a furball and eventually plugs the tile at a bit of an obstruction. I have seen fields retiled (1000 an acre) so it makes guys leary. Annual tritically might be a good cover crop if priced rite. Oats will grow planted with a soilsaver working 6 inches deep, and a leveling bar. They were broadcast with the fertilizer. As well oats do a lot better with 40 lbs of nitrogen to get going.
 
#60 ·
One of my seed cleaning customers showed me a field that he planted tillage radish into, to early and got into the tile. 100 ac field looked like a picture from WW1 of bomb craters everywhere from all the holes he has dug with a backhoe trying to get the roots out. He's still working at clearing tile runs 6 years later.
Would have retiled if it weren't for the $100,000 cost.
 
#62 ·
I am trying sweet clover this spring. For the spring/early summer seeding, is it possible to seed the cover and the grains in same pass (I have double shoot drill, 10" spacing)? I have read that some guys put both seeds in the same row, apparently same depth I guess. I would have thought it would be better to broadcast on top to try to fill in the ground cover a bit. So would have to modify the drill a bit to add broadcast kit, or a Valmar. Also, I have read others say it is better to come back a couple of weeks after planting the grain and broadcasting/incorporating the cover crop. Any body have experience or methods they use for the early seeding?
 
#66 ·
Talking to a lot of older guys makes this seem like it was common back in the day. A box drill with one of those little fert/seed boxes on the front seemed like the preferred method. Let the tubes dangle in front and the packing wheels will do a good enough job. Sounds like sweet clover really dries the ground out for the production you get.

I wonder what the nutrient/water use is on a 30ft tall amaranth plant? A candidate for cellulosic ethanol maybe?
 
#63 ·
I have heard about radish roots in tile lines as well. Asked someone about it and they said the problem comes from standing water in the tile line while the rest of the ground is dry, so like any other plant the radish goes searching for water. We haven't had roots plugging up lines but ours are a lot deeper than in many other areas of the country, 4-6 feet isn't uncommon. I think any crop can plug lines with roots in the right situations so unsure if the radish is any more aggressive or not. Most of the tile in our fields is 6 inch minimum size, dad never seemed to like using smaller tile but I don't think it was as common years ago so price may have been very close.


I don't know how well it would work to seed clovers down the row with other seeds, they like to be shallow. The ancient drill dad always used for planting wheat had a second small seed box on the front for alfalfa and clover seed, he just let the seed drop out of the meters, scatter as it bounced off the frame, and fell around the openers that seeded the wheat. Always seemed to work, especially if he went across later that day with a drag and stirred it up a bit more.
 
#65 ·
Some things are more aggressive at getting into tile. Some trees are worse than other's. They will go 100 feet to get into a tile. Yes anything can plug a tile. Wheat has plugged tile. But very rarely. Alphalfa more common if left down too long. Horse tail is worse than radish.
 
#68 ·
https://smartmix.greencoverseed.com/

This is what I'm using for calculating my initial designs of mixes for the year. I'm not sure if I agree with there recommended rates on everything, but it is the best calculator that I've seen so far. I'll try to get probably 2 mixes together I'll give er a go this fall and adjust from there based on field level observations. Once I finalize my mixes I'll post and see if there are opinions one way or the other
 
#70 ·
That is a valid concern and one that would require a lot more planning ahead then I'm used to, but I hope the good outweighs the bad in this scenario. Almost everyone I've talked to have had turnip experiences where they germinate the next year and cause problems in crops that require running the header on the ground. My biggest hangup so far with the whole process is determining how well broadcasting into standing crop will work. If I can't effectively do that then I'm down to 1/4 or 1/3 of my acres that I have a chance at drilling after the combine. In the corn belt it works great because their row spacings and rain give the cover a chance, but i'm not convinced that it will work that well here.
 
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