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Discussion Starter #1
Running a 01' 2388 and cannot get the white caps out of the clean grain. Here is the set up. AFX rotor, covers on the first and half of the second concave, all concaves are small wire. Veins are in middle position. Had every thing set to the book, now rotor is 1000, and fan speed is 1100. have adjusted chaffer multiple times in both directions. have not moved bottom sieve. Every thing is thrashed just cannot get the white caps out, and fighting a lot of trash. I have made so many ADJ. to concaves and fan and rotor speed I cannot mention. I cannot recall off the top of my head what chaffer I have, but have a Peterson air foil just sitting in the barn. Thinking of swapping them. Any input is appreciated.
 

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filler bars case #1324046c3, we use them if its hard thrashing, work very well, first two concaves from edge of concave half weigh up, can check in morn, work very well, they do work, concave is leveled assuming, is wheat that hard to thrash, we have issues up here, but we don't have hot conditions like the south, are you returning alot, what do vanes in transion cone look like, remove half moon cover, vanes folded over? or on cage, you should not have this issue if everyting is up to snuff, scott.
 

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I had bad problems with my 2388 a few years back with white caps, I set by the book and kept re-adjusting and nothing seemed to help until I tighened the concaves down to the point they almost touched the rotor, literally. It solved the problem and I kept cutting...............
 

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is it that though thrashing, slow vanes down, shouldn,t need to, i would close concave, what we have done up here is remove first to concaves and put filler bars in, not cover sheets, need to look up number, will post right back, scott.
 

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Scott, are you using the 1324046c3 interupter bar or the 1309425C1 filler channel? Are you putting them in the right hand side or how are you positioning them? How many are you running?
 

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1324046c3, front concave from right of machine solid to 10 or 11 bar, 2nd concave to 6 bar solid, 3rd concave the same, when i say bar am refurring to the bar support bar under concave, scott.
 

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Gorden bars and a thousand rpm rotor?? Is there anything at all making it to the spreaders?


If this were my wheat in my location, the solution would be to slow the rotor to about 800, close the very front of the chaffer, set the center section about 1/2", and the tail section at 5/8"-3/4".

I dont know anything about the wheat in your area, but here I can use the straw length as a medium for threshing the wheat out of the hull. But if you are allready cutting to the ground, that may not work.

Another issue that causes chaffer overload is not keeping the machine loaded for the settings. Of course there are as many ideas on just how much is loaded, as there are combines and operators. However, mine is to set the rotor speed sitting empty, then hit the field and set the header height, then pull the rotor down about 50-60 rpm and set the rest of the machine for that load. It works well for me. I run by the rotor tach only. I only switch tot he engine or speed to view it briefly, then back to the rotor tach for operating. This way I have pretty close tot he same load on the rotor all the time. Of course, variations may need to be looked at for your conditions, but........

Typically the Gorden bars will transport the material rearward very quickly and effectively. If you end up with any hulls with kernels stuck on the stem behind the machine, you may need to slow the transport vanes or close the concave.

That's my opinion and I'm stick'n to it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I had my rotor speed down at 800 when I started, made quite a few changes to the top chaffer and convave clearance. Nothing helped, so that is when I called Marvin Gordon, he told me to bump up the rotor speed. I have a peterson Air foil chaffer just sitting in the barn, I may try it as well. Lots of neighbors around here are haveng trouble getting their sample clean this year.
 

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doorknob I know what you mean about setting the machine for the load, the wheat i've been cutting so far is so variable though it is impossible to keep a steady load. Instead of watching rotor speed though I watch engine rpm, I figure unless the rotor belt is slipping severly rotor speed and engine speed should corrisponde. Since my target engine speed is 2350 and rotor is usually 1/3 that then a 10rpm drop in engine speed shows me 3 rpm on the rotor. Also the displays only read to the nearest 10 so a 10 rpm drop in rotor speed would be about 30 engine rpm.

As for the matter at hand how tight have you made the concaves? I would take them down as tight as needed until the white caps go away. Also you may consider opening the concaves clear up, it will retard the flow of material through the rotor and with the cover plates inplace should give you more threshing grain on grain. If those 2 extremes dont fix it along with the other advice, you may try some helical concaves...or just sell the elevator some white caps.
 

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Exactly. When the crop is variable, it is the best time to come up with a method to help as best as possible, to keep a steady load. Like you said, engine rpm should follow rotor rpm. Lots of ways to accomplish essentially the same thing, which is to know when to speed up and slow down to keep the machine full.

I just re-read kirbyfarms's opening statement for the 4th time. As I read it, it says to me that everything is getting threshed. To me, this means the white particles in the tank are empty. ?? ?? Perhaps an occassional cap with a shrivelled kernel. This indicates that either there is too much "MOG" hitting the chaffer and the fan cant keep up, which means too much threshing going on at the rotor, or,.......a chaffer, shoe, fan setting misunderstanding.
Also was mentioned later that none of the setting changes, including those made by Marvin Gorden, made any difference.

I still think that with gorden bars in the machine and neutral vane position, enough thresh action is taking place at 800-850rpm to get even some pretty stubborn thresh wheat out of the hull. Of course the more rain resistant the wheat variety, the tougher it is to thresh.

Many of these machines have issues witht he crossflow fans in heavy weighted MOG. The usualy bandaid is to close the very front section of the chaffer completely. Even with the paddle fan, that is needed much of the time. If the very front section is open much at all, and there is not enough air to suspend the material, the material will fall through to the shoe. This is a very wide spread issue that someone needs to address someday, and can make some money when the fix is found and a kit is made for sale.

IMO, if the material is threshed and the caps in the sample are empty for the most part, then either an overthresh situation is happening at the rotor to overload the chaffer, or the chaffer/shoe combination is not set right. The other option is that one side of the chaffer is being overloaded, which again would indicate either poorly setup concaves or a rotor speed misunderstanding.

The cover plates are a good thing in hard thresh wheat IMO. I even threshed corn last fall with cover plates in. Of course,......I am a very big supporter of helical concaves and grates.
 

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Doorknob if he is overthreashing he might consider removing the cover plates, don't you think? Also how fast/hard are you pushing the combine? When I'm in thin spots and run out of hydro handle before I can load the machine I tend to get some whitecaps but as soon as I get back into good wheat and load the machine proper they go away, once again because of grain on grain threshing.
 

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Right on farminflyboy. It is good to hear from someone that understands the machine and knows well the benefits of grain on grain threshing.

IMO, heavy on the O, this situation sounds more to me as the rotor speed and configuration causing the over thresh, if it is in fact what's happening. The cover plates, though they keep the material from falling through, better allow for the "grain on grain" action and allow a slower rotor at the same time. By leaving the cover plates in, and a slower rotor, you can maintain a longer one piece stem and leaf by not hitting the material so hard and fast.

IMO, not allowing the material to fall through untill it is in a proper.............what I call "state of thresh", allows much faster and more efficient seperation. Problems occur when one tryes to mechanically thresh the wheat with high tip speed at the front of the first concave. Usually this allows the wheat head tips to fall through the concave wires as they get broke off from the head too quickly. Once through the concave, it is too late to recover any thresh action other than running it through the tailings. If it were to be left in the rotor for a bit more and "rubbed" out of the hull, then it can seperate and the kernel fall through and go to tank, and the empty hull can ride the air on out the back.

IMO, if the material that is coming into the tank is empty hulls, instead of "white caps"<full wheat hulls>, then usually it is a sign that a lot of finer material has been forced through the concaves that might otherwise have stayed in. Once through the concaves, the only way out is over the chaffer and cleaning unit. An extremely heavy mog mat will enter the chaffer in clumps and can hamper the fans ability to suspend the lighter particles. Likewise, if the rotor is loading the cleaning unit heavy to one side, the air will blow heavies out on the light side and allow lights to fall through on the heavy side........................um,.....ya,.....if that made sense, good deal.


My self, I have done a lot of quick kills in my crops, using my theories, and have come up with a 50-60 rpm rotor drop as a full machine for my navistar powered 1680 long shoe convert. I still run the paddle fan. I run the machine at the desired drop in rpms, then do a quick kill and decide from the results where to set the rest of the machine to match that rpm drop. It makes for a very easy to operate and forgiving machine. But that is just how I do it.
A quick story about this is when I first installed a full set of gorden bars and went into grass seed. I set it per the usual, but when I hit the field, I was completly befuddled. I had about 50% seed loss over the back. I kept slowing the fan and opening the chaffer, soon I had junk in the tank and still some loss. Finally I did a quick kill and found out that the gorden bars had cleaned the mog mat so well that I was able to return the chaffer to its original settings but slow the fan 100 or more rpms because I had so little crap for the chaffer to work out. I set it up for the lighter mat on the chaffer,a nd was amazed at the samples both in tank and loss. The cleanerman was asking what the settings were as we actually could over load a single axle farm truck with grass seed it was so clean. Point being, a quick kill can solve so many issues so quickly by eliminating a lot of guessing.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
When I first started out I had the rotor RPM's at 850 and would pull them down to 800 under a load, the combine with everything kicked in gear just sitting at full throttle runs 2500, when I am cutting I like to pull it down to 2390, and from that is where I run my rotor, while cutting. speed up in thin spots, trying to keep an even load on the machine. I can tell a difference in the sample when I am cutting with a full head, or running corners out, gets a lot trashier then.
Every thing is thrashed I just cannot get it to clean, I think I will try closing off the very front of my chaffer and slowing my rotor back to 850 and. I have had this machine for six years and never had this much heck getting a good sample. guess every year is different.
I will admit I have never done a quick kill. First started running a bine when I was 12 and the next year I slugged it, had to dig the whole d**n thing out by my self and said I'd never do that agian!!! I realize that they are not the same thing ,but have a hard time bringing myself to do it. Seems like it might be a bit hard on the machine.
 

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I can certainly relate to that statement. Been there, done that, as they say.

It took me quite a time to force myself to do the first quick kill many years ago. The hair, what little i had, would stand up on my neck as I was litterally,.....what seemed like plugging the combine on purpose. Perhaps it was that I were lucky to have actually got it right the first time and was able to restart with no issue at all, that made me a big fan of the procedure. Had I not been so lucky that first time, I may have never done it again,...and as such, would not have learned so many priceless lessons in how the machine operates.

If done properly, the quick kill is not hard on the machine. You will have the engine started in less than 2 seconds from the time it stops. Starting the seperator is nearly as easy, especially in crops like wheat where you have low gear in the rotor box to aid restart.

A quick kill is not a 100% example of the combine in operation, but it is as close as I know how to get.

I hope that closing the front of the chaffer does the trick. It is a very common setup. In fact, many have screwed a piece of tin over that section to permanently and completely block it off.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Got back in the field today. I only made one adjustment to the combine, I closed the front of the chaffer all the way off and MAN what a difference, I had a good clean sample. Want to say thanks to all that responded.
 

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What I have done is take the top sieve out and on the front take a 13 in piece of good flexable belting and bolt to the top of the sieve along the width of it with angle iron and have the belting hang down. Then when you start the rotor up the fan will blow the belting up and redirect the air flow back a little bit for ALOT cleaner sample. Sounds wierd but works great.
 
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