[davedan]

Ive asked these questions on other forums but without any response so if anyone can add to this issue please do,,,
All 9600s that ive ran over the years including my 50 walker machine, in dry heavy yielding wheat, on many occasions have plugged above the precleaner under the walkers,before the shaker pan, behind the concave, SOLID. I have yet to figure out what causes this, i have a few ideas, and have a few ideas on how to fix the problem but need some other input.
First question Does this sound familiar?
Our yields here reach 4+ tons to the acre which contributes to the extra chaff load.
I have removed the walker curtains to keep any unwanted material from hitting the shaker pan and returning to this problem area.
I run slow cylinder speeds to the point in which I do not over thresh the straw. It exits seperator full length and sometimes with the squiggly (so my Dad calls it) intact.
Even though the JD operator book says to run precleaner closed we run ours open just a touch to take seed earlier in theseheavy yields, but never open enough to effect the tank sample. What a difference it made on the day I did decide to run the precleaner open.
My thoughts on how to maybe fix the problem not using more than one method at a time are:
More air to convey the material out of problem area quicker?
Close precleaner to try not to deflect chaff upwards?
Less air to stop chaff from blowing too far up towards pan and walkers?
Louvering pan bottom to allow for excess material off walkers to sift over chaffer area rather than all the way to front precleaner?
Extending front pan edge?
Shortening pan Edge?
Removing Fan jackshaft shield in front of pan?
Different preclener element?
Too much header?

This mystery plugging area has worried me for several years but now Im ready to start modifying my machine to make it stop. I know other 9600 guys who have seen this when running 30ft and larger heads. Im looking for serious responses only and preferably from those who have seen this happen first hand and who knows exactly the conditions on the machine and crop at the time of incident.
Thanks to All.

 

[michaelshawn]

You mention "Removing Fan Jackshaft Shield In Front of Pan," by
this do you mean the shaft that runs right through the machine in
front of the straw walker return pan?

Jim

 

[ralf]

I have seen this problem in 2005. It was sporadicly in any yield. We never had it in earlier years. Interestingly not all combines in the fleet did it alike. One machine was always involved and the first one to plug, while others had it seldom and I think one of the five never plugged.
You already mentioned, that opening the precleaner helps. I turned the air up but never thought of the precleaner. If I would run into it again I would combine the open precleaner with a lot more air.
If you turn your cylinder speed down and thresh very gentle, how bad does your walker loss get?

 

[davedan]

I have tried slowing the cylinder speed down as well as just opening the concave a bit and leaving the cylinder speed alone.
Michaelshawn, sir that is the shield I was mentioning in front of the precleaner, I think It would open up the passage from the precleaner to chaffer. Looks to me the reason for the shield is to divert air from blasting in front of the shaker pan and not allowing material to fall off the pan.
Hammerdown, sir the straw length changes naturally depending on the yeild of and weather the grower decided to try and make money with the crop or not, meaning wet or dryland. Usually I cut about 10 inches of straw with the head to help feeding and get all the regrowth heads down low that sprout later in the season.
I did plug this area once when I went down on the ground with a 936D to pick up 3 ton grain laying flat on the ground from a wind storm, this crop condition is somewhat common here in California with my irregated growers since they dont shut the water down when a storm is due. Yes that particular incedent was from cutting 3 feet of straw and not dropping ground speed enough BUT,,, there must be a way to fix the problem when it happens in good grain, all standing, nice tough straw that stays together well.
Ralf,, sir I can turn the cylinder down pretty slow and dont get hardley any walker loss. I run straw spreaders so its easy to see what the machine is doing, though sometimes I wonder if the spreaders beat out the last little kernal lodged in the head somewhere. I would imagine that the first thing to sacrifice when trading for slower cylinder speed would be a few hulls or uncleaned kernals in the tank.
One thing to mention in this situation is that when it does plug, I pull the side covers to dig and all the material is chaff not straw or ground up straw, just seed, hulls, busted up heads, beard, stems, but no ground up straw. The look of this material in the plugging area makes me believe the material coming off the conveyer augers or blasing through the concave is just not leaving the precleaner area fast enough, is it the short channel it has to pass through under the pan, not enough air, too much air?
I think too much air would make the chaff in this area just swirl up too high in front of the shaker pan under the walkers where it would just recirculate and then overload.
I have cought it trying to plug and was able to stop cutting and let it clean out but it took some time to clean out once I stopped rolling. I usually noticed it when all of the sudden the amount of grain coming into the hopper lessened to a trickle, dirty trickle at that,,, so I would imediatley stop and let the machine clean out and watch my rear view mirror. The pile of straw I was leaving was HUGE, making me think that the walkers were overloading as well up front and maybe causing a chain reaction but monitors dont show anything troublesome. Sometimes when the flow into the hopper would weaken so would the flow off the spreaders in my mirror, once stopped as long as all the shafts were turning the right speed, it would start to rain in the hopper again and then the spreader would start spreading again. Maybe the walkers are slowing and causing the shoe to slow as well as the conveyer augers for a few seconds but not showing on the monitors.
Ive got a few ideas to try for the next season to help the problem.

 

[davedan]

Hammerdown,, sir you mentioned that it seemed to make the problem worse when you slowed the cylinder down rather that open the concave? I can see how that would help and as you probably know slowing the cylinder also slows the beater down. You might be onto something,, My last post shows problems with the walkers not unloading during this and the spreaders quit spreading straw meaning there isnt any straw coming off the walkers to spread,,,, Maybe this whole mess is starting in the cylinder, It cant get rid of the material fast enough, even with the help of the beater, especially when slowing them down, thus causing the cylinder to overthresh overloading the precleaner.

Thanks for all your responses fellas. Keep em coming.

I have always told myself that the best way to run a walker machine was the slowest cylinder speed and the tightest concave clearance possible for exact gentle threshing. Maybe this isnt the way to look at it.
Maybe my idea of overmechanically threshing the grain is a bad Idea, meaning tight clearence more rasp bar contact on each head of wheat with slower cylinder speed. Ive seen other designes of combines, not production combines, which used the priciple of crop agianst crop threshing, or in other words using the crop mat that comes in the machine to your advantage. These machines did in fact work and had fewer moving parts that a 1680 International.

 

[davedan]

I guess I should mention machine settings if this helps anyone...
Cylinder speed 650 noon on,,, 850 morning first thing.
Air speed 1100-1200 In Irregated wheat only
Chaffer 5/8
Seive 1/4
Precleaner 1/4
concave closed in morning as much as 2 in the afternoon.

I make in cab changes according to moisture, temperature, tank sample, and greenstar throughout the day. It gets hotter I start to slow the cylinder but never below 600 or 650

 

[michaelshawn]

There is an attachment available from Deere that goes on the cross shaft in front of the walker pan to help alleviate the problem
you're having. As I recall there are pieces which attach to that rotating shaft to keep the material from blocking up in that area. I'm sure they are in the operator's manual. If you have a problem
finding them email me at [email protected]

 

[deerefever]

got another theory to run by all of you. small grain machines for years, 7700, 7720etc. always run a 150%beater drive. Here where i'm going with this, suppose a 9610 operating in 40-60bushel wheat has no issue with the 100% beater drive, but when you see the higher yield, and straw, it starts to get lazy or behind what is trying to pass through the machine

On machines like the wide body conv. you are talking about, here are some setting we use in mn. 60 bushel yield. feeder house drum down, using the lower bolt ,each side of feederhouse, small conveyor sprocket , right side of feeder house. dual range to high range , cyl speed damp or high yield 900- 1000 rpm, concave open far enough to allow straw to flow through intact but tight enough to thrash. concave inserts removed, fan speed 700-1000 rpms, precleaner closed, chaffer 1/2-5/8 open , lower sieve 1/8 -1/4. also do you have a grain combine or row crop??? this could relate to beater drive.also all our 9000 conv. we add x-tra risers to walkers 15 on wide body 12 on 9500,10,50,60 and 8 on all 9400,10,50. very help full if you have walker loss all crops. i got alittle off topic about risers , but hope this will help.

 

[davedan]

They offer 75% or 100% beater drive pulleys for these Im almost certain that I have 100% on my machines however Both my machines were corn combines from texas that had the concave inserts which I removed. I feel that my walkers are doing enough as far as seperating and that adding risers would add more returns via the shaker pan. I do see what you mean about the older machines, my 8820 never had a problem in this area but I did not know that they had 150% drives either. I have Deeres EPC on my laptop up to 2004 equipment and son of a gun corn and bean 7720s had 100% beater grain and rice had 150%. though my old 7720 had problems bending walkers up front too. I think you are on the right track deerefever. Thank you for your insight.
Abilene machine at one time sold a 6 wing beater with non replaceable vanes for these machines. I guess 6 being able to convey straw qhicker that 4 vane beater but not 50% more.

Michael sir, is the part your talking about to add to this shaft an H137816 its called a stripper and shows only quantity one, clamps are seperate to what seems to attatch it to the shaft. Funny you mention this part Ive never paid any attention to it in the parts book until now.
75% beater speed is optional according to operators manual.
Operator manual also notes that if backfeeding is an issue tha the beater grate can be lowered to the bottom hole creating a larger gap for straw to find the walkers. Ive never noticed any cylinder backfeeding BUT the shear on the top cylinder door would pretty much take care of any signs I would think.
Operator manual does not mention the stripper on the fan jackshaft.
Backfeeding can also be an issue with the front curtains, I have both removed to get the material to exit ASAP
One thing Ive always overlooked as well is the manuals tips for harvesting include setting the concave First,,, until the grain is completley threshed, then adjust cylinder speed to achieve maximum threshing without crop damage. Im not sure what they mean maximum threshing when they say to first adjust concave to get complete threshing,,, seems confusing.

 

[davedan]

Deere fever, do you think the walkers and beater speed and straw build up may be the start to this plugging issue? I havent lost sight of when it does plug in this area its all chaff BUT a huge amount of straw does clean out as well once I get the seperator to turn and clean out.
I guess its possible that the monitors dont show a little slower shaft speed to set the buzzer off but a creep in speed or stopped shaft. In reality I think just a couple of seconds of slower speeds by these components, shoe,walkers, conveyers, all running on the same belt could cause a chain reaction.

 

[davedan]

I wonder if the WTS has curtains and 100% beater drive? I do know that belt slippage for these components cant be fixed if it is beyond new pulleys and belt simply because the conveyer auger drive shaft cant handle more tension that the manual allows. Ive snapped more than one of those cheap shafts trying to keep the walker belt tight.

 

[michaelshawn]

davedan , that's the part I'm referring to, supposed to help keep
the material coming off the pre-cleaner from "bridging" at the front end of the walker return pan. This material will eventually
plug the pre-cleaner.

Jim

 

[davedan]

Does anybody know off hand how many RPM this shaft turns? Could I maybe put more than one row of stripper on this shaft?
Thankyou much for your help Michael.

 

[davedan]

EPC shows that CTS and CTS2 machines use the same part number. Narrow body machines use one as well that works with their seperator size.

 

[deerefever]

Don't know about the shaft speed , or the wts beater speed. However i do know that it runs two curtains, plus the beater grate curtain. Just want to let you know that if you do have your beater grate curtain attached , please remove it before you lower beatergrate. there is a interference issue with the straw walkers.I will look on my SA laptop to see what speed it runs.

 

[davedan]

Thanks for the info Deerefever.

 

[deerefever]

anytime.