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Discussion Starter #1
been having problems with cleaning fan willl run up to 1150 when cold but after she warms up slows down to around 900. checked and readout is right . new pump new motor new control system , and still the same. think it is software related anyone else having this problem TS
 

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I know I am at the risk of starting a colour war here but...what happened to the KISS theory.
Do we REALLY need software and controlers to run the fan speed????
I mean, c'mon. Sure it's nice to say in a sales brochure that this or that machine has fewer belts or daily grease zerks...but at what cost???
Farmertony, when was the last time you had fan speed issues on your 'older' machines?
Is this progress??
I really would be concerned on having one of these machines out of warrenty.
 

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Quote:I know I am at the risk of starting a colour war here but...what happened to the KISS theory.
Do we REALLY need software and controlers to run the fan speed????
I mean, c'mon. Sure it's nice to say in a sales brochure that this or that machine has fewer belts or daily grease zerks...but at what cost???
Farmertony, when was the last time you had fan speed issues on your 'older' machines?
Is this progress??
I really would be concerned on having one of these machines out of warrenty.




Might want to educate yourself first before spouting off like that. Your belt drive is still a hydraulically driven variator. Software still controls the electric signals sent to the coils on the hyd spools telling them how and where to send the oil. The only difference between a true hyd drive fan and a variator is that with the motor you require a constant oil flow, thus the valve stays open the whole time instead of opening and closing to adjust the variator width. You just change how much voltage goes to it to vary the oil flow. No matter how you slice it you're still relying on software to control electric signals to a hyd spool which changes fan speed, be it by motor or variator.


Has the dealership checked the voltage being sent to the control coil and compared it to when its running slower? When you say cold, how cold are we talking? I'm willing to bet that its more of an oil viscosity issue. I assume its got Hytran in it.
 

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WHAT???????

We are talking about fan speed here.
I am hardly spouting off. Is there a reason you are so deffensive?
There is NO software and NO hydraulics that I need to change my fan speed, and if the little electric motor craps out, I can change it manually. Maybe you should educate YOURSELF.
WTF??
My point is that things can get way too complicated for no good reason. A variable speed belt for fan speed is a VERY simple and proven thing, why would you F*$& with it.
I like CIH's rotor and header variable drives IF they prove they work well with age.
I have a saying..."electronics are great...when they work."
They more chit that CAN go wrong, the more chit that WILL go wrong.
In the history of combines no machine has ever had an issue with contolling fan speed, so is this an improvement???
K.I.S.S.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
we are leaning toward the oil going to change it out tommorrow sabotage? was at the dealers a while this summer? having trouble holding reel and spreader speed as well she's half broke but still pushing a 40' draper 6 mph. working best ever right now' with new AFS 600 and amazing new software
 

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[
Might want to educate yourself first before spouting off like that. Your belt drive is still a hydraulically driven variator. Software still controls the electric signals sent to the coils on the hyd spools telling them how and where to send the oil. The only difference between a true hyd drive fan and a variator is that with the motor you require a constant oil flow, thus the valve stays open the whole time instead of opening and closing to adjust the variator width. You just change how much voltage goes to it to vary the oil flow. No matter how you slice it you're still relying on software to control electric signals to a hyd spool which changes fan speed, be it by motor or variator.


The John Deere has a electric motor that moves a pulley to make the fan speed go up or down.
 

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Quote:
The John Deere has a electric motor that moves a pulley to make the fan speed go up or down.


Some form of software or potentiometer or switch that is integrated into CAN-BUS has to control that motor.

Farmertony I'd find the solenoid that controls the valve for the fan motor and unplug the wires. Put a multimeter on the connection. The system will either provide a signal voltage to open/close the valve or provide a constant, but varied voltage based on the fan speed. Have someone run the combine and change the fan speed and monitor what/when you have voltage. Determine this and plug the connection back in. Pierce the wires near the connection. Run the machine and run the fan speed up to where you want it. Monitor the voltage as the fan speed slows down. If you have a variance in voltage during the change in fan speed, then you'll know that its electric/software related.
 

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Quote:been having problems with cleaning fan willl run up to 1150 when cold but after she warms up slows down to around 900. checked and readout is right . new pump new motor new control system , and still the same. think it is software related anyone else having this problem TS

Could be a leaking seal within the fan drive motor, possibly near the case drain if equipped, that only warm oil can pass through causing the working pressure to decay.
 

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Quote:I know I am at the risk of starting a colour war here but...what happened to the KISS theory.
Do we REALLY need software and controlers to run the fan speed????
I mean, c'mon. Sure it's nice to say in a sales brochure that this or that machine has fewer belts or daily grease zerks...but at what cost???
Farmertony, when was the last time you had fan speed issues on your 'older' machines?
Is this progress??
I really would be concerned on having one of these machines out of warrenty.


Are you Amish?
 

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No.
This is relavant to the conversation...how?
I bought a 7920IVT last year and it is the first tractor that I have bought the extended warrenty for. Lots of things that could go wrong that may be expensive. Things that I could not fix it my own shop. Same applies to farmertony's problem, have to get the dealer involved for a problem that I believe should have never been one in the first place.
JMHO.
 

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The point at which somone has to involve the dealer is determined by the mechanical skill of the customer. We have a lot of customers the fix the STS's on their own- problems a lot more involved than the fan speed issue.

If Deere combine owners aren't scared to keep a machine out of warranty Why are there so many used low hour 60 series machines for sale?
 

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kinzepower, as both I and lexionman575 pointed out, it makes no difference in it being a hydraulic or electric motor controlling the fan (I was speaking of the hydraulic controlled variators on a NH combine) software still controls these things via the CAN bus network. Any combine built in the last 10-15 years is going to be this way. With as many features as people are demanding the combines have its impossible to not have a CAN bus network. Its the 21st century, its time to come out of the dark ages. Computers and software isn't a fad thats going away. Really if you stop and take a minute to think about the systems and what they need to work and how its not THAT difficult to troublshoot the combine.


When you check the voltage to the coil at the valve body don't use anything that can pierce the wire. Use a set of spoons. This will let you read it without disturbing the wire protection (insulation). There is a part number for these in the CNH system, but the dealer SHOULD have a set on hand. You can't really unplug it and start playing with the fan controls. As I recall if the CCM does not see fan speed it kicks out the separator. Also be careful, the fan block is located directly above the RHS elevator/chopper sheaves in front of the fuel tank. Not a good place to be sitting with a multimeter. Has the dealer pulled the spool and checked for contamination or seal damage? I'd still like to know if the coil is being sent any commands buy the CCMs.


Muddy, its probably not the fan motor seals. He stated in the first post that it was replaced. While its possible to get a bad one from service parts, the chance is very low.
 

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I realize that there is controls etc that are involved with the traditional type of speed selector, so I will re-iterate my point so try not to get your red undies in a bunch.
BTW this is not a JD vs CIH thing, this is a 'are we making progress' thing.
Please try to see my point objectively.

I am going to use my combine as an example, and yes it is a Deere, but that is not the issue as most combines use the same system.
If I want to change fan speeds, I push a button on the armrest, and it activates a 12v motor that changes the variable speed drive pulley, thus changing speeds. During crops, once I have it set, I never change it, and there is virtually no way it can change on it's own. The maintainance is 2 50 hour grease fittings and 1 belt that will go for years and years. I have NEVER heard of this type of system 'failing' or screwing up, maybe a belt breaks, no biggie. If you inspect belts, you should NEVER have on break while using it as there is no shock or spike loads on a fan belt. Worst case, the wiring for the Can-bus system shorts or the 12v motor fails or what ever the fan speed still runs at it's last setting and you keep going. You can also change it manually until such time as you fix the motor, or whatever went wrong. A VERY simple design that is CHEAP and EASY to fix, and RARELY breaks.
The new CIH system uses a far more compicated set-up and little gremlins can reak havac and the fan speed can be erratic. Temperature, viscosity etc can affect it, the set-up has to be constantly monitered due to these factors. This makes it more complex, more expensive to both manufacture and maintain and GREATLY increases the chance for problems in the field. Evidence of this is this topic.
What are the PROs?? No greasing and no belt, so basically it's a marketing thing. I have, nor have heard of anybody else, have had down time or problems due to fan speed. Farmertony has, and 8010 dude has also heard of others. So my question is what have we gained by using this tech?!?
The answer is nothing but headaches. There is NO productivity advantage. I can set and change the fan speed in the cab, just like this system. Again, besides the marketing thing, there are NO advantages.
This is not like comparing a power shift to a straight gearbox or a IVT to a powershift where there are many productivity advantages by making the system more complicated. I don't want to go back to a powershift now that I have a IVT due to benefits. That does not mean I don't know or understand the pitfalls of new tech, it's just that this new tech is a better way.
PLEASE explain to me how making such a simple task complicating WITHOUT changing user friendliness or productivity, is a advantage.
Just because you replace all the belts and grease fittings on a combine, does not necessarily mean you have made it better at all. My Deere flex head has no grease fittings on the u-joints on the driveshaft, I would rather it did. It's a step backward. 10 minutes of regular maintainance in the morning is FAR more productive than a failure when you are busy and you have all kinds of equipment and people in the field when things break. Non greasable u-joints are not a step forward in my world, neither is this fan system.
Another question to ponder, if people do not have time for a few minutes of daily maintainance on a machine like a combine, how to they have time for a breakdown???
Reminds me of a quote I read on one of these farming boards, "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, how will you have time to do it twice??".
I just thaught of another thing that annoys me about the marketing arm of big company. My 05 9760 had the grease zerks on the front variable speed drive at 10 hours. The 06 model has them at 50 hrs...what changed? Mine still get greased everyday and it's a good thing no doubt. Maybe the effects wont show up for a few years, but if it failed because of this, I'd be pissed. There is no way a machine with this many moving parts and wear points should not have some daily maintainance, but apparently 'we' are asking for it. It could be I'm a little anal though, I even oil the cornhead gathering chains if I am waitiing for a truck...silly me.
 

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Kinze, I certainly see where you're coming from. The 2388s that I'm used to have the 12v DC motor on a worm gear going to the adjustable pulley. It is a simple system.

The advent of electronics have allowed us to offload some tasks into their own little self-monitored system. Look at the header height system. It can adjust the height of the header far more efficiently than a human can. The fan doesn't have a need to adjust that much though, so the benefit goes away. The only think I can think of is if you're cutting in a field on a very windy day. 30 MPH wind coming at the back of the machine will pressurize the top of the sieves more so than vacuum created when driving into the wind. *In theory*, the computer could sense the wind speed and direction, and compensate fan speed to get the correct air flow through the sieves.

Meanwhile, while the wind speed/fan speed auto-adjustment doesn't exist, hydraulic drive fans probably have a bigger downside than benefit. The benefit is that there is no belt to maintain. The downside is the system now has to monitor the fan RPM, and adjust the hydraulic valve since the flow will change as the oil heats up.

-Lance
 

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Meanwhile, while the wind speed/fan speed auto-adjustment doesn't exist, hydraulic drive fans probably have a bigger downside than benefit. The benefit is that there is no belt to maintain. The downside is the system now has to monitor the fan RPM, and adjust the hydraulic valve since the flow will change as the oil heats up.Lance

Lance I thought the spin on this when the 8010 first came out was to maintain fan speed regardless of engine speed? CNH also gets points from me for running a nearly 0% engine governor. Observed it on the 9070 and 8010 this year. To me that's more important.

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #17
this system is very simple costs less, I think, than shafts and bearings that wear out and slip and elec motors that won't work no greasing the system self diagnostic says its working fine ? got to be something simple not in the elec or hyd parts they are all new

my salesman went out to trade in a new 9660 for a 7010 had never been in one. his opinion, what a noisey POS and such a small cab younger guy who said he had never been in such a loud cab on a newer piece of equipment
 

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How can it be simpler and cost less??
My fan has 2 bearings, so does yours.
So what you are saying is the new system is simpler and more dependable...yet you have had trouble with it, and I will bet you have never had this trouble before in your life.
And have never been in a X010 cab to compare, I would not take second hand info from a salesman on ANYTHING. But yes, people seem to agree that the Deere cab is louder, although I don't find it any louder than anything else I run. One issue people have is the unloading drive is loud. It is a staight cut bevel gear that runs ojust outside the cab, and yes, I have been in Deeres that this is annoyingly loud. Mine on the other hand gets oiled every day when I do the chain, and you can't even tell it's running.
 

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So the AFX8010 fan speed stays the same if the engine pulls down rpm's, then the rotor also stays the same and the seives will and the feederhouse will too when the engine pulls down, is this the rightway the 8010 works, everything needs to stay the same for it to work. As the cab, is it the bigger cab the better, have never seen a bigger cab better, more to cool, more glass for the sun to heat up and also you do have more space to have junk in the big cab.
 

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I understood the reason for a hydraulic fan drive was because the fan moves with the self leveling cleaning system. It would be difficult to get a belt drive to compensate for 14 degrees of movement in each direction.
 
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