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Discussion Starter #1
3 years ago or so I came on here asking what the best way to drive a 540 13 inch auger with a 1000 tractor. Fast forward three years or so and I have rebuilt my rodono reducer three times and it is now kaput. Maybe I had a lemon, maybe it was built in Peking but it was a bust. I know that hasn't been the case with some other folks. Now do I take a chance on another or change over the westfield to the 1000? Or in a perfect world trade it off for a fresh one with 1000 pto. Has anybody had any trouble with the gearbox on the 1000 pto westfield 13 inch . Is it the same as the gearbox on the 16 (which would be a great overbuild for the 13) ? Power delivery to the auger seemed way way way smoother when I borrowed my neighbours 7410 late this fall after the rodono blew up. Yes I have tried running the auger with an adapter at low speeds . Wants to plug in tough grain and can't idle it down enough when running empty . Didn't like it at all. Whats the life of a 13 inch 100 foot auger in soybeans wheat and Canola? A million bushels? more? Less?
 

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the planetary gear boxes used by the auger companies are very good as long as serviced properly
breathers have to be clean -otherwise the pressure buid up takes out the seals and they pile up
we change oil every season and have run them for ten years on both and have no problem
 

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Rodono has built some good equipment over the years. Those gear boxes of theirs are pretty beefy to be failing that soon. My first thought is U joint angles. Which would be harder to equalize with the Rodono reducer box moving the power shaft back further than the SAE dimension. How are you getting the equal angles required on the front and rear auger U joints? Do you have one CV joint in the shaft? Is it on the auger end or the tractor end? My clue is you say when you borrowed your neighbors tractor and your auger ran way smoother. What ever angle your auger is running at to get to the top of a bin, say 30 degrees, then each U joint should be half of that, 15 degrees. Otherwise the U joints chatter, which could be doing the damage to your drive line. With the Rodono in the driveline, it could make your angles even more uneven. I always adjusted the height of the auger hitch up higher on the tractor drawbar to equalize those U joint angles. And with the Rodono gearbox in there I would think you would need to lengthen your drawbar. I realize CV joints help with this angle problem but I saw a big auger with the CV at the auger end of the shaft, leaving a single U joint at the tractor end which was running at almost the total angle of the auger. Which is why we were changing shafts. Let us know what you figure out.
 

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Like Transaxial said make sure hitch is long enough so drive shaft is not bottoming out at steeper angles or when turning while moving auger around, and that U joint angles are kept equal. Whenever adaptors are added on to a pto draw bar quickly becomes too short. Also make sure tractor is straight in line with auger when set up in bin.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes I did all that. I extended the hitch on the tractor to match the extension to the drive system. And I always park it perfectly straight. Bearings went out of the gearbox twice and my machine shop rebuilt it very carefully both times as I didn't trust myself to preload or shim anything properly. Then she blew up real good this fall and is now ruined.
 

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Is it possible that there is a wear issue in the driveshaft joints causing a vibration ?

As it was said before although you crossed that off the list, I remember a friend who had bought an auger and for the first while they said it ran with a vibration and as soon as it was run empty it was just awful, turns out the dealer threw on the PTO shaft backwards as it had a coupler at both ends and the CV end was being utilized on the tractor and the single Ujoint was at the auger end, easy to make that mistake if one is unfamiliar with the unit and how its to be set up.

Wetfarmer, is there any special oil they use in those gearboxes, what do they specify to use ?
 

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There is a lot of misunderstanding of how U joints actually work. Every single U joint causes a change in speed when turning at an angle. The tractor is constant speed, and you put a U joint at an angle of say 15 degrees, in one 360 degree revolution, the output of that shaft will increase speed at two points and decrease speed at two points. Hard to believe maybe but that is what causes the vibration. The tractor is constant and the load tends to stay constant because of the inertia of that load when turning. So you put a second U joint in this drive line, and you align the two U joints properly so they are "phased", which involves lining up the yokes on the inner half of each U joint. This is why most shafts have a master spline or rectangular shafts so they can not be slid together wrong. Now if your tractor is straight with the auger, and if the auger is say at a 30 degree angle up to the top of the bin, you need to raise or lower the hitch of the auger where it connects to the drawbar of the tractor so that each U joint is running at 15 degrees. Each joint now is running with half of the 30 degree total angle of the auger incline. What this does is to allow the short telescoping part of the auger drive shaft to do the speed up slow down cycle equally at both U joints with only the short part of the shaft changing speed and the tractor and the auger stay running at a fairly constant speed. This now makes the speed up slow down equal between the 2 U joints and since the speed change is only on the short shaft, you get very little vibration in the system. I know there are lots of different scenarios in an auger driveline when set at different heights, but if you have 2 single U joints they need to each run at equal angles. If you have one single U joint and and a CV joint on the other end, the single needs to run as close to straight as it can and let the CV split the total auger angle.

I used to just eye ball the angles to get them close to equal, and use a long 3/4" bolt with spacers between the top of the drawbar and the bottom of the auger hitch to lift the bottom end of the auger up or down to achieve the splitting of the two U joint angles. If you run one U joint in a system straight and one with all the angle you are going to get this chattering that eventually tears the whole drive line apart. I hope this explains it better but I am pretty sure this is the cause of your problem.
 

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You should get way more than a million bushels out of a swing auger, granted Westfield has thinner tubing than say a Farm King. I would just trade the auger off on a 1000RPM unit, maybe build some taller bins so you can justify a longer auger too...ha ha
 

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Discussion Starter #9
once i get it running i will check the driveline carefully for slap and vibration. it has no cv. the angles are very slight with most bins as it is very long . It ran so nice on the 7410 I can't imagine there is much wrong with the auger. I think I will convert the auger or take SWMAN advice and buy a new one and some taller bins and a bigger tractor:) And a new guitar, seemingly unrelated but is it?
 

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I know that my Farm King auger is well over 3 million bushels, and still in reasonable shape. Did buy a Brandt auger last year to help my Farm King, have one auger with the swing to the left, other set up to the right.
 

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Our 13x70 farm king has given us so little trouble. The swing away flighting and first section in the main tube are wore out after 15 plus years of use. We have never changed a u joint and did the bottom and top bearing on the main tube this past fall. We ordered it with a heavy duty drive shaft and the drive shaft has been great. It has been very reliable for us. We never put fertilizer through our swing away.
 

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Is it possible you were supplied with the wrong drive shaft from the very beginning, that just sounds very odd that the unit doesn't have a cv on the end opposite the tractor end. I'd be looking into what actual drive shaft is called for on that auger with the drive speed reducer system you have and see if yours is that spec and setup designed for 1000 rpm operation.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I did check and have no cv on the auger end of the drive line. I haven't called the dealer yet to see if thats wrong for this auger. I have a standard cross on each end. Trade in on a new 1000 rpm one is plus 21k cash. I think this one was 19 brand new so thats inflation. It has done about a million bushels and I have replaced a lot of parts in the hopper and swing area as well as a gear box on the bottom. Im looking at a couple options for tractors still which would be 540. Ill keep you updated! I think I would go Farm King next time.
 

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The style of CV joint an auger drive shaft uses isn't the same as lets say a CV shaft for the front axle drive shaft of a car for example, just in case you looked and saw a Ujoint and perhaps not what you expected. The plastic shielding covers most of them over so well that its hard to see how its even designed but with the shaft off and moving the end coupler you soon see how the other end of the yoke which forms the center portion of the CV you can see is moving off center from the shaft when the coupler end is moved away from a straight line with the drive shaft. Probably is a good photo somewhere online to use as an example.

I just find it very surprising if it is indeed a single Ujoint on either end, I have three different swing augers here of three vintages and three makes and every one of them is set up with the single Ujoint on the tractor end with the sheer bolt or bolts, and the opposite end attached to the auger ( all 540 augers with no gear reduction box ) is a CV style joint with its three grease nipples hidden within the plastic shielding that can be a bit of a chore to get access to.

My wonder is now, lets say the dealer supplied you with the wrong drive shaft from day one and it resulted in the gear box failures, then again the gear box was something you added or did they add it from the very start, another words who is at fault if there was a mistake like this made. I've not paid much attention to the gear reduction auger system nor looked at a drive shaft that was on one.
 

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x2

Yes, all our swings (Farmking) have CV joints - so very strange that you would not have one on your Brandt swing too?

I had problems with a FK13x70 in the mid90s. The driveshaft it came with did not like steep inclines and likely suffered from not having enough distance between tractor and auger (speculation) - so did lengthen that out. Part of the CV would fail (ears break off). It was a very large bin for the auger (3307 flat) and the shaft telescoped in (possibly near bottomed out) and maybe when the tube was full, it changed geometry enough to bind - not sure as it only failed twice I believe and always on that same bin.

The solution for us was to buy a PTO shaft from a 13x85 which was a much heavier drive shaft and at that time cost $1200 (late '90s) but it was well worth it and never had an issue again with that auger! We kept the old one as a backup because no one nearby seemed to stock any of the parts needed to repair specialized yokes- crosses yes, the rest no!!!

On our very first 13x70 we had a lot of gearbox problems, bearings failing. We have bought 2 13x85s since, the last one has the 1000 rpm pto drive with the Chinese gearbox on the end. I think I posted before on other threads, but what we did was added a lot more gear oil into those failing gearboxes. We added an extension pipe to the side so we could get the oil in!

In my estimation, the reason for gearbox failure was due to running the box in an upside position and oil not being slung up to the bearing. IMO, there should have been an oil "slinger" on the shaft which would splash the oil around better which I guess could be another viable option if you think that adding too much oil will be hard on seals. We have never had an issue with extra oil in the box and it keeps it from failure. It works! I know gearbox failure has been totally prevented so far and we have been running these augers since the mid-90s.

This year we had issues with the 1000 rpm drive system on the FK1385. We keep all 3 augers as backup because your combines stop when you can't dump the grain! They used a round to square shaft to drive the bottom of the auger flighting. Naturally, it broke off at the interface between the square and round! Major issue with that system was that no one had parts and it had to come out of Winnipeg - happened on a Thursday night - you know where that leads!


We unhitched the auger and tied on the backup 540 auger to replace it and carried on - wait on repairs. Used the other auger for the rest of the season. All this stuff is built too light IMO - especially if you auger lentils. An auger sees lentils, it just about wants to crap the bed! I guess one should invest in a 120 ft conveyor! Augering barley would never cause a problem, even if wet!

As it was taking a long time to get repairs from Winnipeg to our closest dealer in Rosetown (while we are in SW Sask) and was expensive, we took the drive off the auger, removed the broken shaft pieces and took them to our very good local welding shop. There was a reason given that Rosetown didn't want to ship direct from factory to us. The machine shop built 2 of them so we now have a spare and price was cheaper. I believe they made them from keystock and cut an inverted interface between the square and round to help reduce the high stress area (u vs. n).

Of course, it was all fun as the auger shaft twisted off while it was full of lentils and kochia weed seeds. It also wasn't fun to try and get the gearbox off the machine as they use a chain couplings internally to couple power to the swing direct. We found it difficult to get that back on, gearbox is very heavy as well. It was nice to have a picker to put it back together again. Taking it apart was easy, as we basically let it fall to the ground after getting upper drive (internal apart) and taking out bolts around the circumference! (I also enlarged the hole in the end of the auger, so we don't have to slide the gear off the 1000 gearboxshaft next time. This was the 2nd season on this auger so it was new (not rusted in yet) and managed to slide the gearbox off the auger. We got in there with crowbars on either side - no room inside to get gear coupler off as it is inside a cage and no space to work. A bigger hole in end plate will allow us to remove the gearbox and never have to remove that gear!


That is our experience. 1000's common in your area? Parts available if it blows up like it did on us? Do you have a backup plan? Time is money. Some things to consider on your next purchase! Sorry for the long epistle!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
x2

Yes, all our swings (Farmking) have CV joints - so very strange that you would not have one on your Brandt swing too?

I had problems with a FK13x70 in the mid90s. The driveshaft it came with did not like steep inclines and likely suffered from not having enough distance between tractor and auger (speculation) - so did lengthen that out. Part of the CV would fail (ears break off). It was a very large bin for the auger (3307 flat) and the shaft telescoped in (possibly near bottomed out) and maybe when the tube was full, it changed geometry enough to bind - not sure as it only failed twice I believe and always on that same bin.

The solution for us was to buy a PTO shaft from a 13x85 which was a much heavier drive shaft and at that time cost $1200 (late '90s) but it was well worth it and never had an issue again with that auger! We kept the old one as a backup because no one nearby seemed to stock any of the parts needed to repair specialized yokes- crosses yes, the rest no!!!

On our very first 13x70 we had a lot of gearbox problems, bearings failing. We have bought 2 13x85s since, the last one has the 1000 rpm pto drive with the Chinese gearbox on the end. I think I posted before on other threads, but what we did was added a lot more gear oil into those failing gearboxes. We added an extension pipe to the side so we could get the oil in!

In my estimation, the reason for gearbox failure was due to running the box in an upside position and oil not being slung up to the bearing. IMO, there should have been an oil "slinger" on the shaft which would splash the oil around better which I guess could be another viable option if you think that adding too much oil will be hard on seals. We have never had an issue with extra oil in the box and it keeps it from failure. It works! I know gearbox failure has been totally prevented so far and we have been running these augers since the mid-90s.

This year we had issues with the 1000 rpm drive system on the FK1385. We keep all 3 augers as backup because your combines stop when you can't dump the grain! They used a round to square shaft to drive the bottom of the auger flighting. Naturally, it broke off at the interface between the square and round! Major issue with that system was that no one had parts and it had to come out of Winnipeg - happened on a Thursday night - you know where that leads!


We unhitched the auger and tied on the backup 540 auger to replace it and carried on - wait on repairs. Used the other auger for the rest of the season. All this stuff is built too light IMO - especially if you auger lentils. An auger sees lentils, it just about wants to crap the bed! I guess one should invest in a 120 ft conveyor! Augering barley would never cause a problem, even if wet!

As it was taking a long time to get repairs from Winnipeg to our closest dealer in Rosetown (while we are in SW Sask) and was expensive, we took the drive off the auger, removed the broken shaft pieces and took them to our very good local welding shop. There was a reason given that Rosetown didn't want to ship direct from factory to us. The machine shop built 2 of them so we now have a spare and price was cheaper. I believe they made them from keystock and cut an inverted interface between the square and round to help reduce the high stress area (u vs. n).

Of course, it was all fun as the auger shaft twisted off while it was full of lentils and kochia weed seeds. It also wasn't fun to try and get the gearbox off the machine as they use a chain couplings internally to couple power to the swing direct. We found it difficult to get that back on, gearbox is very heavy as well. It was nice to have a picker to put it back together again. Taking it apart was easy, as we basically let it fall to the ground after getting upper drive (internal apart) and taking out bolts around the circumference! (I also enlarged the hole in the end of the auger, so we don't have to slide the gear off the 1000 gearboxshaft next time. This was the 2nd season on this auger so it was new (not rusted in yet) and managed to slide the gearbox off the auger. We got in there with crowbars on either side - no room inside to get gear coupler off as it is inside a cage and no space to work. A bigger hole in end plate will allow us to remove the gearbox and never have to remove that gear!


That is our experience. 1000's common in your area? Parts available if it blows up like it did on us? Do you have a backup plan? Time is money. Some things to consider on your next purchase! Sorry for the long epistle!

Thanks for the cautionary tale. Mine is a Westfield. The auger has stayed together well but the Rodono box has failed 3 times, the last time fatally. Sounds like you had a nightmare experience with your 1000 rpm farm king. That doesn't bode well...
 
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