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Apparently BASF is on the warpath over the use of generics on Invigor canola and Clearfield lentils. Based on the LTA agreement with the canola and seed commitment on lentils it is illegal? to use any product other than BASF products. They have been auditing farmers all over the countryside to see what products they have been using. So far they have only removed the farmer from their programming if they are using generics.

What are everyone’s thoughts on using generics when the contract you sign says you can’t. Are we abusing their research and technology by using generics on seed they have developed? Or is the use of generics a good way to keep a company honest?
 

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This really irritates me. As far as I recall I never signed an agreement with BASF, it was with Bayer and would have carried forward. Years ago Bayer saw the patent was coming off Liberty and they dropped the price of it to fend off generics. At the same time the price of the seed jumped and the reasoning was that by buying the seed we were "paying for the technology"....usually in December of the previous year.:rolleyes:

So if BASF wants to get stupid they should be aware that there is other Glufosinate tolerant shatter resistant canola out there, also most of their recycled and re-named actives have generics as well. So it wouldn't really be that hard to eliminate BASF from the shopping list!

Remember these are the guys that often short the market of product, now they are whining about not making sales...
 

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Unfortunately with Clearfield lentils there are no other herbicide tolerant options.
 

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Most of the research is done at the u of s. So who real paid for it. $18.75 and acre for ares on clearfield lentils is alittle steep. Compared To 20% rate of generic pursuit
 

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I guess technically if you don't want to follow the rules of the contract you shouldn't sign it. Farmers are not above contract law. Grow something else that you are willing to abide by by the terms of the contract you sign.



If no one uses their stuff, terms will change.
 

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I agree on the generics we developed the tech through checkoff.... but on the other hand I did sign the agreement at the beginning so.....


personally I think that there is more going on there than the generic chemicals. Crop Development center is renegotiating next round of funding agreements with partner producer groups right now and want to start charging end point royalties. i think basf sees a chance to begin collecting end point royalties on that technology in 3 years and that is why there are so anal about keeping track of who has the seed right now.
 

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Funny when i bought my house there was some deficiencies, when we went to the builders to get them fixed the builder had sold to another company, and apparently did not have to honer the contract since the original builder didn't technically exist.

Would be interesting to get a legal beagle input on contract law, where the one of the party is bought out. Companies are always changing names to get out of contracts.
One thing i know, is when one company rakes it in as good as these seed companies are doing, others are going to want to get in on the game, just a matter of time.
 

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My point is there is huge margin in canola seed and supposedly not in the Liberty portion of the equation. Why on earth would they burn bridges with their loyal seed customers over some generic Liberty sales? Seems like a really bad idea to me, but yeah the contract pretty much allows them to do whatever they want.

The seed royalty thing is not dead, I was reading my seed growers newsletter the other day and they are very much going to pursue that further. :frown:
 

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Most of the research is done at the u of s. So who real paid for it. $18.75 and acre for ares on clearfield lentils is alittle steep. Compared To 20% rate of generic pursuit
Ares was actually sold to another company along with clearfield canola. You’re technically not allowed to spray it on clearfield lentils now, so if you do get audited be sure to not mention Ares. Whole thing is a total joke.
 

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Unfortunately with Clearfield lentils there are no other herbicide tolerant options.
Ares was actually sold to another company along with clearfield canola. You’re technically not allowed to spray it on clearfield lentils now, so if you do get audited be sure to not mention Ares. Whole thing is a total joke.
Never heard anything about or told when when I bought the chemical
 

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So if I bought Pioneer’s or Dekalb’s generic Invigor canola can I also buy generic Liberty. If it’s illegal to use generic Liberty it should be more illegal to sell it.
That's a good question. Seems there is very little info on BASF website about this, in fact I cannot find the LTA agreement on there at all(and I looked for awhile). I did see that they say you need to sign an agreement to grow clearfield lentils but does not say what you can spray on there. It does say a portion of chemical cost goes to CDC. https://agro.basf.ca/basf_solutions/seedsandsystems/Clearfield_Lentils.html

I have my original copy of the LTA, but Bayer amended it in Sept of 2016 and the link on the email takes me to the Bayer homepage now. So basically it's all dead-ends, google search comes up with this thread...lol
 

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They like to leave a little bit of grey area in there to use to their advantage. If it was all black and white, they would have no rules to bend. No different than most contracts.
 

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So if I bought Pioneer’s or Dekalb’s generic Invigor canola can I also buy generic Liberty. If it’s illegal to use generic Liberty it should be more illegal to sell it.

kinda like prostition law in canada. Its not illegal to sell it, but it is illegal to buy it..
 

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They like to leave a little bit of grey area in there to use to their advantage. If it was all black and white, they would have no rules to bend. No different than most contracts.
That is exactly how laws are written also so they open to interpretation and it makes it virtually impossible to be certain that your are doing things legally. You know, "she experienced it differently". A successful defence for some, a joke that would be thrown out for most.
 

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kinda like prostition law in canada. Its not illegal to sell it, but it is illegal to buy it..
Well they are the two oldest professions apparently...

Worth noting that Bayer updated that LTA in September(read HARVEST TIME), and it was automatically agreed upon unless you provided written notice. Safe to say no Western Canadian farmer read that thing because they were busy doing fieldwork.

Here is some text from the email. I think this reads that you cannot use Liberty without an LTA and I'm not sure if Dekalb and Pioneer would make you sign a LTA to buy seed. Kauppfarms is right, total joke.


If you don’t agree to all of the amendments to the LTA, you can terminate your LTA with Bayer by
providing Bayer with written notice under the LTA on or before October 31, 2016. Upon termination of
the LTA you must immediately cease all use of LibertyLink® seed and Liberty® herbicide.
 

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That is exactly how laws are written also so they open to interpretation and it makes it virtually impossible to be certain that your are doing things legally. You know, "she experienced it differently". A successful defence for some, a joke that would be thrown out for most.
And add to that "she did not understand what she was doing" and "You want a fair and equitable settlement don't you?" So much for "The Contract"!!

Well they are the two oldest professions apparently...

Worth noting that Bayer updated that LTA in September(read HARVEST TIME), and it was automatically agreed upon unless you provided written notice. Safe to say no Western Canadian farmer read that thing because they were busy doing fieldwork.

Here is some text from the email. I think this reads that you cannot use Liberty without an LTA and I'm not sure if Dekalb and Pioneer would make you sign a LTA to buy seed. Kauppfarms is right, total joke.


If you don’t agree to all of the amendments to the LTA, you can terminate your LTA with Bayer by
providing Bayer with written notice under the LTA on or before October 31, 2016. Upon termination of
the LTA you must immediately cease all use of LibertyLink® seed and Liberty® herbicide.
I agree that the lawyers can and will use every unscrupulous and shady deviation to make these contracts work to their advantage . Like their own deadline on a one time offer to opt out of a contract knowing full well that most did not even see it while in the middle of harvest. And after all, creating lots of "grey area", is a sure way to be certain of plenty of future work. There aught to be a law against this kind of deliberate confusion. But it is lawyers playing the game with other lawyers.

How do you know if a lawyer is lying? Answer: His lips are moving! You guys are right, it is a total joke.
 

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I think we as farmers give these companies to much info for free that in the end they just use against us. The BASF rep calls every year wanting to know my seeded acres. I always tell them I have not decided yet. It is none of their buisness as far as I am concerned. How would they know if you seeded clearfield lentils or conventional ones unless you tell them. I think we may need to be a little smarter as far as what we disclose for info going forward.
 
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