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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok.. Im not a new farmer, but I have only been farming about 6 years now. I cant seem to get the kind of yields I should. I think I have been putting the fertilizer a little too deep below the seed with my Conservapak. This year I think I am going to try to just get the fertilizer as close to the seed as possible without seedling burn. Last year I brought my fertlizer knife way up to where the fert was about 1.5' below the seed on the canola. I put 90N 30P 10k 15S blend down. But I put 15lbs/acre P with the seed. It was so dry ( 3/4" rain from seeding to after swathing, and record heat by 5 degrees) so I didn't get to see any gains. Canola only ran 17bu/acre.

My question is this..... is your goal to get the fertilizer as close as possible to the seed, without burn? My wheat and oats have never yielded anywhere near what I felt they should. And I think its because generally speaking the yeild is set in the boot before it gets to the hot fertilizer. My wheat has been running around 25-30 bu/acre and canola around 30-35, with similar groceries. Oats last year only ran 65 with 50-25-10-10 or so....

So, just trying to eliminate possibilities. I hired an agronomist this year as well, and she's awesome. Just want to see what others goal/approach is. Oats Im thinking putting the fert 1/2" to 1" below the seed, and maybe 25lbs phos with the seed. I am going one more year, and if I cant turn profit I have to sell my machinery and call the game. Thanks in advance for the advice. --Bob
 

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I dont know about you guys but I've never heard a local farmer talking about fertilizer burn in my entire life. It costs too much. I could give you advice on every scientific and fact based level you wanted, but I would just allocate 10-25% minimum of your input cost to fertilizer in an even spread, besides corn of course. Which would be more like 50% nitrogen.

Or soil test and precision applicate recommended levels with GPS maps

I believe in row crop 2x2, I believe it is best. But in general it doesnt really get any more economical than just dry spread fertilizer, I definitely have never worried about depth other than anhydrous bar. Record crop this year. 150-200 an acre on fertilizer for corn, maybe 125 an acre USD on beans. 1200$ an acre revenue here

I think while the fert was cheap we ended up with something like 200 P / 200 K pounds an acre, MAP fertilizer + a micro additive. 3 applications of nitrogen on corn. (1 application I didnt even know about, uncles son in law Y dropped a couple fields)

I do think of depth actually, but Im not sure if it matters with how i deal with it. I have been the past years vertical tilling in the fall and normal cultivator in the spring, after dry fert applications and before planting. 2 inches is the depth you want to shoot for, at the minimum. Deeper is better than shallower in my experience.
 

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Where are you farming, roughly? This year was absolute sh#t is a lot of places. I made between 20-40bu/Ac oats this year with full fertility. This ground does 90 normally with no fertilizer.
So yeah, definitely no profit for me this year either.
 

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Iowa, midwest USA. Not a good year, but ended up well for us for whatever reason

I believe the overall dry year helped us with our hilly poorly drained soil.

Not too familiar with oats. Only thing about them that I know is that the best oats my grandfather ever had were 115 bu/ac(allegedy), we harvested some oats for neighbors this year and there were little side bins that had oats for horses in my families driveway my entire life.

Actually cut the concrete bolts off those bins and hauled them off for calf shelters last year. They got torn to pieces in the storm this past summer.

I do not believe oats are known for profit. My family did well with them once in 40 years. Other than that its bucket feed and shuck bales.

Thats farming though. I obviously havent completely figured it up but the last time we had a windfall was 2012 or 2013.

I would learn about your local market as much as possible and probably do anything except oats
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Iowa, midwest USA. Not a good year, but ended up well for us for whatever reason

I believe the overall dry year helped us with our hilly poorly drained soil.

Not too familiar with oats. Only thing about them that I know is that the best oats my grandfather ever had were 115 bu/ac(allegedy), we harvested some oats for neighbors this year and there were little side bins that had oats for horses in my families driveway my entire life.

Actually cut the concrete bolts off those bins and hauled them off for calf shelters last year. They got torn to pieces in the storm this past summer.

I do not believe oats are known for profit. My family did well with them once in 40 years. Other than that its bucket feed and shuck bales.

Thats farming though. I obviously havent completely figured it up but the last time we had a windfall was 2012 or 2013.
I farm in North Western Alberta....
 

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That wasnt my question.... lol
I went out of my way to answer your question and give advice in a friendly manner. If you want to be rude out of desperation, your fertilizer rates are pathetic let alone something to worry about causing fertilizer burn.

Why dont you apply 0-200-200 and put up an irrigation system? Then youll have no one to be irritated with
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I went out of my way to answer your question and give advice in a friendly manner. If you want to be rude out of desperation, your fertilizer rates are pathetic let alone something to worry about causing fertilizer burn.

Why dont you apply 0-200-200 and put up an irrigation system? Then youll have no one to be irritated with
LOL dude... relax... I was joking.... Lighten up man... thanks for the advice, I do appreciate it. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Iowa, midwest USA. Not a good year, but ended up well for us for whatever reason

I believe the overall dry year helped us with our hilly poorly drained soil.

Not too familiar with oats. Only thing about them that I know is that the best oats my grandfather ever had were 115 bu/ac(allegedy), we harvested some oats for neighbors this year and there were little side bins that had oats for horses in my families driveway my entire life.

Actually cut the concrete bolts off those bins and hauled them off for calf shelters last year. They got torn to pieces in the storm this past summer.

I do not believe oats are known for profit. My family did well with them once in 40 years. Other than that its bucket feed and shuck bales.

Thats farming though. I obviously havent completely figured it up but the last time we had a windfall was 2012 or 2013.

I would learn about your local market as much as possible and probably do anything except oats
Interestingly, lots of guys in the area, find oats pretty profitable, its just the volume that people hate. But, you folks growing corn wouldnt have issues with that. Im almost postive my dumb arse has just been putting the fertilizer too deep, and limiting my yields pretty bad...
The 2x2 approach would likely be awesome, but would require paired row openers, or something similar. I cant get them for these ole conservapaks, but I bet like you mentioned it would be a great way to go, especially with cereals. maybe a fella could build a set though. :)
 

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Interestingly, lots of guys in the area, find oats pretty profitable, its just the volume that people hate. But, you folks growing corn wouldnt have issues with that. Im almost postive my dumb arse has just been putting the fertilizer too deep, and limiting my yields pretty bad...
The 2x2 approach would likely be awesome, but would require paired row openers, or something similar. I cant get them for these ole conservapaks, but I bet like you mentioned it would be a great way to go, especially with cereals. maybe a fella could build a set though. :)
Good lord just sign up and start a discussion on Agtalk youll fit in great.

I thank you for your innate hatred and jealousy. Really, conservapak? Never heard of it but I bet its snake oil. Put on 0-200-200 and stop jerking people off.
 

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I think you might be thinking in the opposite direction. Ideally you want four inches of distance between your N source and seed due to toxicity issues that can cause seedling damage. Saying that, Pami has a really good report on sideband vs midrow and affects on stand and yield in canola, wheat and flax. at the end of the day there wasn't much difference even at 150% rate of N. So with that I doubt your conserva pak will put the N to far away from the seed. However, when we start talking about P &K that's a different story, especially P. What is your soil temp when seeding? Phosphorous can be "tied up" by the cold making it difficult to access by the seedling until soil temps pass +10*C. this is the reasoning for in furrow or popup fertilizer. To get P close to the seed early on so it is accessible by the plant despite the cold soil. Your background fertility levels will also have an affect here. If your background levels are low you will see a better response to in furrow P, and even at high levels you will still see a response, albeit lower. If you're not consistently soil sampling I highly recommend you do, and at this years fertilizer and grain prices I would test every acre you got. I attached a graph showing yield response of canola to P application both in-furrow, broadcast and incorporated, and banded. I would argue you're hampering yourself with in-furrow P with the canola.
Rectangle Slope Font Plot Parallel

I also attached a graph of P response in Barley (most all cereals will respond the same) to show the efficiencies of different placements.
Rectangle Slope Plot Triangle Font

Of note would be that banded by definition in this case is placed in the soil, below the seed. I have no data on fertilizer placement relative to yield, other than the PAMI trial I mentioned above. I do know mafri here did trials with N placement and after 150lb/acre actual N they recommend four inches distance between seed and fert.
 

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Yeah somehow I don't think that farming practices and conditions in Iowa have anything in common with northwest Alberta. Very different climate, growing season, crops, etc. Even where I farm in Alberta is very different than where you are.
 

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Good lord just sign up and start a discussion on Agtalk youll fit in great.

I thank you for your innate hatred and jealousy. Really, conservapak? Never heard of it but I bet its snake oil. Put on 0-200-200 and stop jerking people off.
your knowledge on air drills is about as much as I would know about proper adjustment on gathering chain on a corn head, so its probably best if you do some research before chiming in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I think you might be thinking in the opposite direction. Ideally you want four inches of distance between your N source and seed due to toxicity issues that can cause seedling damage. Saying that, Pami has a really good report on sideband vs midrow and affects on stand and yield in canola, wheat and flax. at the end of the day there wasn't much difference even at 150% rate of N. So with that I doubt your conserva pak will put the N to far away from the seed. However, when we start talking about P &K that's a different story, especially P. What is your soil temp when seeding? Phosphorous can be "tied up" by the cold making it difficult to access by the seedling until soil temps pass +10*C. this is the reasoning for in furrow or popup fertilizer. To get P close to the seed early on so it is accessible by the plant despite the cold soil. Your background fertility levels will also have an affect here. If your background levels are low you will see a better response to in furrow P, and even at high levels you will still see a response, albeit lower. If you're not consistently soil sampling I highly recommend you do, and at this years fertilizer and grain prices I would test every acre you got. I attached a graph showing yield response of canola to P application both in-furrow, broadcast and incorporated, and banded. I would argue you're hampering yourself with in-furrow P with the canola.
View attachment 163952
I also attached a graph of P response in Barley (most all cereals will respond the same) to show the efficiencies of different placements.
View attachment 163951
Of note would be that banded by definition in this case is placed in the soil, below the seed. I have no data on fertilizer placement relative to yield, other than the PAMI trial I mentioned above. I do know mafri here did trials with N placement and after 150lb/acre actual N they recommend four inches distance between seed and fert.
Super interesting. I would guess, looking back, that the fertilzer band of the bulk blend was closer to 4'-6"deep below the seed... I need to do a better job of measuring that. My agronomist felt it was really good last year with the Canola, but as mentioned we had a crazy bad drought. And yes sir. I should have soil tested this year, especially considering the cost of fert this year. Good to know, that guys dont worry quite as much with the banded fertilizer, and more with the seed placed. That makes sense to me as well. Thanks for clarifying that. Next year I will make sure I dont have the fertilizer knife too deep, and have reasonable separation from the seed. Then likely we will put 20 lbs actual phos with the seed.
 

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your knowledge on air drills is about as much as I would know about proper adjustment on gathering chain on a corn head, so its probably best if you do some research before chiming in.
Curious how that came up. I dont remember talking about it but you guys can pile up on me I can take it. Came here for friendly farming discussion, this is the first time I was turned away. Thats fine.
 

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Being so dry this year a lot of crop didn’t respond to fertility like normal. Bringing the fertilizer closer to the seed isnt something I’d be doing unless your over six inches away and the same depth. Placing it deeper is a good strategy to utilize it better and weather proof it a little. Roots go down. Groceries placed 2 inches deep are stranded in a dry year once it in dry soil. In an ideal world I place N three inches deep and three to the side of each seed row the the P split with 75% two inches below seed row and the rest with seed for quick uptake. Any S with N
 

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We typically place 80N about 3/4" deeper than the seed with wheat, and beside the side row (seed is paired row with the fert deeper and centered between the paired row). We've only had one instance of fertilizer burn and perhaps it was because the soil was quite wet when we planted it, so it dissolved more quickly and was too hot. We farm sandy soil, and we are irrigated, but irrigation doesn't turn on until May, so the first few weeks is just whatever moisture the soil is carrying. However we also have been struggling with wheat yields lately. Part of that is hotter summers than normal, but that's probably not an issue for you up north. We've been experimenting with using some ESN. I think we're using too much ESN right now. I put 35# of ESN on last year, out of the 80. I think by the time the ESN has dissolved and becomes available, it's too late for the yield. So we're reducing the ESN for the coming year. Also on a dry year we irrigate a lot more which might be leaching N as well. We already top dress N through the pivot, and will continue to do so. This next spring we're going to try different rates of seeding and fertilizer to see if we can find a profit sweet spot. Maybe I need to put less dry on during planting, and put more liquid N on through the pivot during those first few critical weeks.
 
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