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Discussion Starter #1
No one on the Deere forum seems to be able to help me so i thought someone here might be able to. I'm looking at putting new concaves in my 9750STS and i was just wondering how well do helical concaves work? We harvest wheat, peas, lentils and canola. I saw them on the Loewen website and they seem like a really good idea but i would like to hear what others think of them.

Thanks.
 

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Hi
We run a 2388 and have a sw helical concave in the first position then a standard large wire then a standard small wire. We use this to cut wheat barley and canola. We change to this setup from the standard 3 small wire supplied with the machine.

The helical has allowed us to run with the concave wider and then we use less power so we can get more output especially in wheat.

I would buy again.

There have been other threads on here so try a seach, one guy has helicals right through.
 

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The purpose of the concave crossbars is to retard material so "threshing" action can occur. In a perfect world, you want the corssbars to be at a perfect right angle to the material flow. A conventional combine pretty much has this ability.

In a rotary machine, the material is travelling rearward as it rotates about the rotor. With a stock type concave, the crossbars are not perfectly perpendicular to the material flow. The helical concept is to create as near perpendicular crossbar orientation to material flow as possible.

Essentially you gain 2 fold with the helical. You not only get proper threshing action form the proper crossbar orientation, but you gain more crossbar length basically increasing the "size" of the concave. In essence the crossbar is now the hypotenuse length of the right angle.

Some folks say that the helicals are "more aggressive". Some say "too aggressive". In reality, the helical is proper and the standards are "less aggressive" or IMO, sub-optimal.

I dont know about your peas and lentils, but I run a full helicla theme. I made my own helical grates to go with the concaves.

 

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Discussion Starter #4
When i saw these concaves, they just made sense to me right away. I like that the crop hits the bars at a 90 (like you said doorknob) instead of at a 45. We have trouble with partial heads in the sample when in wheat (could be something to do with worn concaves). In my mind these concaves should help with that problem somewhat. What do you guys think? You mentioned the peas and lentils and then i wondered, do you thrash beans doorknob?
 

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This year was my first ever attempt at growing soybeans. The stemms were somewhat tough. As far as I know, the machine worked super. The splits and chips were very low in count and only a few empty pod chips in the tank sample.


Stems were still in one piece and empty pods hanging on to them. All beans were gone though, just tough running those ropy stemms through.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Ok. So if you had very few splits in soybeans then it should be the same in peas and lentils. I figure as long as you run the concaves wide enough, damage should be minimal.
 

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Could be. Ron Kile used to run a lot of peas and was telling me about some of their set ups. Basically, if you can run peas or lentils now, I cant see why you could'nt with helical concaves. Like i say, it's not that they are over agressive, you just have to realize the increase in performance and thresh action and make adjustments accordingly.

In an overly simplified statement, I tend to look at the front concave as a "conditioner" of sorts, to get the crop material in the proper "state of thresh", for lack of better description. If I can get things arranged properly and in the condition I want, then normally I have an easy time getting the final results I want. In other words, since you are looking at the helical concaves and are actually excited about learning their pros and cons, I think you are one of the few that can think outside the box. That is important IMO. You likely have a better chance than most at making the helicals work for your crops.
 

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No They just let us run the concave wider and let the centrifugal forces do their job in separating the grain.

Doorknobs bean straw looks perfect to me, can only be beans on the sieves. We try to do the same in wheat and leave the chaff on the straw, mostly we can but I understand perhaps we have different conditions here.
 

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Perform?......no. No issues or shortfalls as of yet.

Dislikes?......on the Loewens, if you have to remove and re-install them, they are ungawdly heavy. I mean seriously heavy.

Otherwise, I will not go back to straight bar concaves. If no-one makes helicals anymore, I will make my own. In fact, I may do that anyway, so I can customize the wire size and spacings to my likes.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for the help homefarm and doorknob. I am seriously considering these concaves now. If anybody has any other thoughts or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks.


P.S - I'll let you know if i put them in or not.



P.P.S - Maybe i can get this Deere to thrash like a Case yet
 

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I have been using a Loewen Helical concave in the front position of a 9650sts for 4 years. It is definitely more aggressive than the regular concave. It also seems to feed easier, this combine with the Helical concave is quieter than my 9660 with the factory concaves. I have to be careful not to overthresh in dry (10%) winter wheat. But it will help eliminate white caps in hard threshing spring wheat. I have been considering trading combines and was wondering of Loewen makes radial concaves for 7120s.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Speaking of pros and cons, do you have any dislikes about using the helical concaves or in the way they perform?
 

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Yes they are heavy and I am glad we dont grow peas any more and have to change it.

Ours is on its second combine.

After a real wet harvest about 7/8 years ago our original small wire concaves in our old 2388 where looking battered.

Looked at buying a new set but saw a helical at a show. They suggested the set up we use now. We bought a front helical and used the best large wire and best small wire from our original sets. So it was cheaper than three new standard concaves.

We traded that combine after the helical had been in about 5yrs but took the helical out. It was pretty much like new so when the new combine arrived we took out the brand new front concave and put in the old helical so perhaps heavy is not all bad.
 

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I am a complete, 100% beginner at the grain corn thing so,......take anything I say with 2 grains of salt. However, here is a link to thread I just made over on agtalk about my first corn harvest with pictures.'
http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=127231&mid=898850#M898850

After the first bit of running and learning how to set the machine, I noticed a few kernels had a chip from the side of them. After looking at the concaves, which I left the small wire helicals in just to see what might happen, I saw that the kernels left sitting in the wires were oriented such that the kernel would be chipped the same as they were in the sample. So, I only had one harvest service large wire and I put it in the 3rd position to see if it might help with the chipped kernels. It did.


However as you can see in the picture, cobs starting getting stuck and I noticed more cob breakage on the ground. Keep in mind I am using a grain platform to cut the corn as I could not find a corn head. I wish I had a helical setup for corn with a wire spacing somewhere between the small wire and the large wire. I guess I'll ahve to make my own.


Even with all the stalk and leaves going through, the helical grates stayed clean for the most part.



Here's a few pics of the aftermath. I got most of the ears, just a few were lost off the front of the header. Some header shelling with the reel fingers. But I was happy with it all as I had what I think is a nice tank sample. I was pleased with the loss, and very happy with the combines ability to run all that crap through it and still have something to sell.







 

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Doorknob, your pictures show exactly why we only harvest corn with skipped large wire concaves compared to having every wire in. Your concave looks clean where you had the skipped wire, but plugged where the wires are all in. The skipped wire also keeps the cobs that get through in bigger chunks which makes it easier to filter with your top sieve. Having all the wires in makes the cobs break up into such little chunks that it seems impossible to filter out from the kernals.

I have thought about experimenting with the helical concaves, but it would be hard to justify because the skip wires are doing so good for us. I wonder if it is better to have the cob 90 degrees from the concave or whether it is better to keep the concave bar 90 degrees from the rasp bar. The design of the helical concave would seem to retard the flow a little in the concave area which I think can be good for corn, and I wouldn't have to retard the vanes over the concaves any more. The design of the helical concaves makes me think that it is not any harder on crops, it just gives it one extra pass.
 

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doorknob..I admire your innovation(s)! How would helicals work in corn?..has anyone tried them? Could a guy run wider clearances to offset the more aggressive concept..and maybe end up with less kernel damage?
 

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If I read your thoughts right, I think you have the right idea. With the helicals you should be able to run faster transport vane positions. I put a second set of transport vanes in my machine. They are fixed in medium. So far, so good. If I get a second cih machine, I will put a second set in it as well. Somewhere in this thread is a picture of them. I cant remember where i put the pics on my computer right now, so please excuse the boring up load of the rest of the pics here.
http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=62424&mid=439631#M439631
 

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Case must have tried helicals in corn at some time.

I was wary when I first saw the helical concave as I thought surely case would have tried this and be fitting them as standard if they were better.

Then when I found this site I began to understand that corn was what this combine was made for, with beans next.
Case R+D must be 99% on these two crops and improvments will always favour them even if not so good for small grains and other oddball crops.

The improvements made to the chaff and straw spreaders on our new 2388 were worse than usless in our high volume straw crops over here. Yet must work fine in your corn and beans

We have had to make changes ourselves with our previous axial flow experience. Some help from Case but they kept telling me I knew more than them because I had done more combining. They said they only have time to do demonstrations at harvest time no testing!

It just is a surprise that I am expected to customise the combine to my crops when it costs mega dollars.
Perhaps I am being unreasonable or do others think Case should admit that they do not test in these odd places and conditions and tell us we are on our own. Perhaps even recommend some of the aftermarket improvements if they are not willing to offer them as standard.

It is difficult to believe something like an aftermarket concave will improve performance but the helical has.
 

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Doorknob, I appreciate the nice pictures. My previous post talked about having the rasp bar 90 degrees from the concave cross bar. I didn't realize that the gordon bars are giving you the best of both worlds because they keep both your crop and your concave bars at the same angle as your rasp bar. The Gordon bars look as though they would push material through fast because it is in the shape of the kickers that make the crop exit the rotor fast. This probably helps offset the helical concaves retarded flow a little. We run a lot of corn, and the only thing I think might help on the original specialty rasp bars is the nice gradual ramp. I would think that this would help in corn. That way you can keep a tight cob width concave while still having the ability to start the pinch. I just always wonder if the rasp bars without ramps would tend to push some ears rather than properly pinch and then shear the kernals.

Our 9510 did a great job, but would sometimes just pushed a minimal amount of ears over the concave. I always wondered if this was because the rasp bars didn't have a nice ramp on them. To accomadate this, I always ran the concave just a little more open than the cob width. So maybe this would work good with the Gordon bars also since they don't have much of a ramp. What are your thoughts?
 

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Like these?


These are a reverse rasp bar. I ran them the whole season 2009. Worked super. I have 12 total. Then I installed all that I could get sent from the factory of the forward rasp bars of the same configuration. Ron Kile now sells these. Both the forwards and reversers. They have the afx ramp angle. They fit and both the specialty and the afx.
Aparently Marvin Gorden dont care for them as a freind called him and asked about it.
But I'd like to know how many he's tryed.
 
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