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Discussion Starter #1
We put duals front and rear on our 4450, and run a V ditcher. Been using this setup for probably 20 years without issue. Last year i was runnin it and started getting filter and pressure lights, and slowly losing steering, hitch, and eventually very erratic speeds for a given gear, and tough shifting. Everytime i switched the filters out it alleviated the issue for a day or so and gor worse again.

After the season we had the transmission gone through completely, but the clutch was not replaced.

It planted wheat with no issues this year, maybe a light that was cured with a key cyclw while running.

Now back ditching this year, same exact problem. I can put two new filters on it and run a day and a half like its brand new, and after that ill be topping out at 3mph in 15th gear, yet going 10mph in 8th gear.

There are particles in the fluid, not metal. Either clutch pack or mud. The ditcher throws dirt all over the scv area of the tractor. The clutch acts totally fine. I put an compressed oxygen screw on top over the hyd. fill cap, and wrapped the dipstick, and no change.

What the heck is going on? main pressure starts at 2200 and will be around 2050 when its acting up.

Think its the clutch slowly shedding and not showing signs? Where could mud possibly be entering our case? Why now after such long success with this setup?

Thanks for any help
 

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Is this Quad or Power shift? Your reference to gear numbers implies Powershift...

Ever cut open a set of filters to see what or how much stuff is in them? Good example of when pressure warning system lights and beepers start going off to have the transmission operating systems pressure checked immediately :eek:

You're not getting dirt in the system. You never want to seal up the tranny as you did, it needs to be able to breathe, however that's not what caused your troubles here as you did it after the fact.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Is this Quad or Power shift? Your reference to gear numbers implies Powershift...

Ever cut open a set of filters to see what or how much stuff is in them? Good example of when pressure warning system lights and beepers start going off to have the transmission operating systems pressure checked immediately :eek:

You're not getting dirt in the system. You never want to seal up the tranny as you did, it needs to be able to breathe, however that's not what caused your troubles here as you did it after the fact.
Powershift.

I put a filter in a some gas for a few days hoping it would pull the particles off. Looks like clutch material to me, but could easily be grains of dirt. No metal.

We didnt seal it. I slid an like an argon gas protective cap overtop of the stock filler vent cap, and zip tiedit on...to keep water from coming in the underside of that vent, and to keep mud from caking on the whole cap. Its not sealed.

We have gone through trans sensors a lot over the years and unfortunately got in a habit of cycling the key to avoid the noise and keep on rolling. This time its not a false alarm though. Still, tranny is fine with new filters each time. But thats pricey every two days.
 

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i think there is a pickup screen at bottom trans it can be removed from the side.if there is brass on it it is your brake pads failing.
 

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Well gonna be some issues for sure even if it seems to work with new filters, obviously clutch and brake packs within the tranny have been slipping and that's most likely what is plugging the filters in the first place. Needs to be properly pressure tested thru all gears, most likely an internal leak has developed on one or more clutch packs resulting in a operating pressure loss which has allowed slippage. Slippage causes burning and warping of the clutches. There is only one repair, and that is rebuild of tranny.

The 50 series was known for quirks developing with the electronics for monitoring the transmission and often repeated false signals is a sign of processor failure on the transmission circuits. And it's a pricey bugger. There are ways to bypass the system, however you then need to run external gauges on both operating and lube pressure. I have been running my 4850 that way for a few years now, but I have a gauge visible from the seat showing transmission operating pressure at all times. This is totally different pressure than the main hydraulics.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I have been running my 4850 that way for a few years now, but I have a gauge visible from the seat showing transmission operating pressure at all times. This is totally different pressure than the main hydraulics.
The mechanic that did the transmission rebuild last year has put in two gauges for us this season since acting up. One reads 155-170psi, the other 2050-2200psi. i have forgotten exactly how he described each of them. He just gave us ranges to stay within otherwise call him.

After hearing about brakes, i had forgotten to mention. 3 years ago we had a wheel bearing go out and chew up one set of pads pretty bad that he replaced. We only did one side. Im guessing the other could be failing now.
 

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The mechanic that did the transmission rebuild last year has put in two gauges for us this season since acting up. One reads 155-170psi, the other 2050-2200psi. i have forgotten exactly how he described each of them. He just gave us ranges to stay within otherwise call him.

After hearing about brakes, i had forgotten to mention. 3 years ago we had a wheel bearing go out and chew up one set of pads pretty bad that he replaced. We only did one side. Im guessing the other could be failing now.
I over looked the mention that the tranny has been recently overhauled. I see a warranty issue arising, best of luck;)

There is no "clutch" per say in a powershift transmission as with other gear type. Except you say changing the filters makes a difference, I would suspect the torsional dampener as some of the issue, however that is strictly mechanically controlled with springs. Possibly if the tranny and fianl drive cases were not cleaned out properly, could be residual crud now causing trouble. Take one set of the filters and use side cutters to open the outer screen and pull open the paper pleats and see just how much of what kind of material is between them.

I'd have to pull my manuals, but you seem a bit low on operating pressure, mine usually runs around 180-190psi hot, bit higher when cold. Possibly the smaller tractors run different pressure. I'll have to pull the book and I'll get the numbers for you. The other circuit monitored should be lube pressure not hydraulic, as a drop in lube pressure indicates internal leakage.
 

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K. firstly my bad, had a blonde moment, there is no torsional dampener on the 15 speed. Didn't mean to confuse the issue, work on too dam many different ones and its easy to get a bit mixed up...that's why I always check my books;)

Grabbed my jobber manual instead of the Deere one, one thing I like about those aftermarket books is they are a lot easier to find pressures and such listed. These trannys are sensitive to pressure drops, changes in lube pressure during tests of only 1.5 PSI indicate leakage and a fail on test. On operating system its 3 to 5 PSI to fail a test.

Minimum spec on operating pressure on all models is 170-180 PSI. So yes you are low.

Lube pressure at idle should be 10 PSI.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Minimum spec on operating pressure on all models is 170-180 PSI. So yes you are low.

Lube pressure at idle should be 10 PSI.
Thank you for going out of your way to check on that. I do believe he told me around 175psi, but did not seem concerned that it was consistantly around 160, maybe he isnt even aware of how sensitive they can be.

This particular fluid pressure being low, is that indicating internal leak, or weak pump, or screen blockage?
 

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What oil do you use and what viscosity? Also what region are you in? Extreme cold will make cold oil hard to go through filters. Even clutch damage over this length of time you would notice performance issues already and you said it is performing good.
 

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Thank you for going out of your way to check on that. I do believe he told me around 175psi, but did not seem concerned that it was consistantly around 160, maybe he isnt even aware of how sensitive they can be.

This particular fluid pressure being low, is that indicating internal leak, or weak pump, or screen blockage?
Would still work good At 160.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
What oil do you use and what viscosity? Also what region are you in? Extreme cold will make cold oil hard to go through filters. Even clutch damage over this length of time you would notice performance issues already and you said it is performing good.
JD HY-tran or Hy-gaurd....whichever its called.

We cant ditch below freezing, but its usually borderline. 40s mostly. SE Virginia.
 

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if your filters plug that quick there is probably trans trouble. going through hyd diagostics will find the problem i have seen brake pads fail and plug screen you may have psi but low flow .put a flow meter on scv or a loop line and see if it chatters. another possibility is hoses failing on implement making contamination. does your charge psi 170 stay the same in all gears. also check pto on /off ,step on brakes, turn steering, run 3 pt hitch,seat, mfwd clutch .psi should stay the same. also turn on diff lock. if 3mph in 15th gear clutches are slipping
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
the plates may be wore but psi may still be ok. duals on frt, mfwd clutch?? does mfwd slip under load.
Its a 2wd. The duals up front are just to help straddle ditches.


if your filters plug that quick there is probably trans trouble. going through hyd diagostics will find the problem i have seen brake pads fail and plug screen you may have psi but low flow .put a flow meter on scv or a loop line and see if it chatters. another possibility is hoses failing on implement making contamination. does your charge psi 170 stay the same in all gears. also check pto on /off ,step on brakes, turn steering, run 3 pt hitch,seat, mfwd clutch .psi should stay the same. also turn on diff lock. if 3mph in 15th gear clutches are slipping
You can kind of hear it moan, kind of a starving and pulsing when steering or lifting up the PTO when its at its worst. The last time it was bad, i also noticed the PTO still in gear very slowly with the lever out of gear, but i didnt put too much thought to it, as it could just be out of adjustment. It was not mud holding up the linkage though, as i cleared that out to be sure.

PTO seal has a slight leak but nothing major.

Ill have to watch the pressure closer next time i operate, but in a days time, it may very 5psi max. I only noticed a major drop right when you put the PTO in gear. otherwise the fluctuation didnt seem to be attached to any one thing.
 

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My advice is simple...have this tractor transmission tested before you use it anymore. Something isn't right, and continuing to use it is only going to make it worse in the end IMO.

Funk designed that tranny to run at minimum operating pressure of 170 to 180 PSI and as recent as three years ago it was still the operating pressure a good friend of mine who is service manager at a very large Deere conglomerate store also spoke of...so anything less is below specs and asking for trouble. Especially if there is leakage, further pressure drop within the clutch packs could be what is causing it to slip, which obviously it is.

My concern is also with your mechanic Farmboy...he don't seem to worried about your problems...if it was me, I'd have been there at first notice to test it. I don;t see him standing behind his work. Why was the tranny rebuilt in the first place? Was it tested prior to being done?

I am known for being picky, particular and even been called slow when it comes to important stuff doing mechanics, but then I am also known for being thorough and meticulous...thus why I don't question specs and believe in determining what the problem is prior to trying to fix it. So ultimately I am going to give different advice than many others will. But then I also warranty and stand behind my work;)

Abfarmer....on the 50 series, the MFWD clutch is spring applied and hydraulically released...yep backwards to what one would think;)
 

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My advice is simple...have this tractor transmission tested before you use it anymore. Something isn't right, and continuing to use it is only going to make it worse in the end IMO.

Funk designed that tranny to run at minimum operating pressure of 170 to 180 PSI and as recent as three years ago it was still the operating pressure a good friend of mine who is service manager at a very large Deere conglomerate store also spoke of...so anything less is below specs and asking for trouble. Especially if there is leakage, further pressure drop within the clutch packs could be what is causing it to slip, which obviously it is.

My concern is also with your mechanic Farmboy...he don't seem to worried about your problems...if it was me, I'd have been there at first notice to test it. I don;t see him standing behind his work. Why was the tranny rebuilt in the first place? Was it tested prior to being done?

I am known for being picky, particular and even been called slow when it comes to important stuff doing mechanics, but then I am also known for being thorough and meticulous...thus why I don't question specs and believe in determining what the problem is prior to trying to fix it. So ultimately I am going to give different advice than many others will. But then I also warranty and stand behind my work;)

Abfarmer....on the 50 series, the MFWD clutch is spring applied and hydraulically released...yep backwards to what one would think;)
its been over 20yrs since i worked for deere so some things are getting hard to recall.i agree if you dont want to do a complete trans repair i would get someone to do some hyd testing before its too late. sounds like there is an internal leak. check intake screen
 

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My advice is simple...have this tractor transmission tested before you use it anymore. Something isn't right, and continuing to use it is only going to make it worse in the end IMO.

Funk designed that tranny to run at minimum operating pressure of 170 to 180 PSI and as recent as three years ago it was still the operating pressure a good friend of mine who is service manager at a very large Deere conglomerate store also spoke of...so anything less is below specs and asking for trouble. Especially if there is leakage, further pressure drop within the clutch packs could be what is causing it to slip, which obviously it is.

My concern is also with your mechanic Farmboy...he don't seem to worried about your problems...if it was me, I'd have been there at first notice to test it. I don;t see him standing behind his work. Why was the tranny rebuilt in the first place? Was it tested prior to being done?

I am known for being picky, particular and even been called slow when it comes to important stuff doing mechanics, but then I am also known for being thorough and meticulous...thus why I don't question specs and believe in determining what the problem is prior to trying to fix it. So ultimately I am going to give different advice than many others will. But then I also warranty and stand behind my work;)

Abfarmer....on the 50 series, the MFWD clutch is spring applied and hydraulically released...yep backwards to what one would think;)

Well put! X2


But I find it strange it works fine after the filter swap. One would think that a damaged clutch pack in the trans would still be malfuntioning no matter the pressure. Especially the amounts of filters he is going through. Two questions keep popping up in my head. One, is the tranny malfuntioning because the plugged filters and not b/c of tranny damage. This would explain why tranny rebuild didn't help. It acted the same way before rebuild.

Second, it only acted up with current application. You said you planted wheat and got by fine. Maybe the implement is contaminating the oil. I have seen hoses deteriate and cause serious problems. You would swear someone put paper towels in the oil when you cut apart the filters. It also looks like the filter itself blew up inside the canister. The fibers you are getting can be from previous failure. Many times I have been inside a job that someone else did and found they didn't clean out the diff housing or clutch housing. Some mechanics are lazy. Unless you find large chunks on sump screen plugging it off, clutch material doesn't plug up filters. It plugs up sump screens.

IMO. Of course! :)
 

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for the current jd techs. on the quad trans the 3 pt hitch piston cover (square plate) can break bolts and blow packing causing major internal leak. is ps trans the same? this may cause chattering on high psi circuit but wont plug filters.also if suction screen is plugged changing filters shouldnt fix the problem but??? if filters are changed and everything checks out check hoses on implement. or is it 3 pt? there wasnt a lot of 4450 ps in our area but im sure they were much like 46 48s.how dirty is the oil if plates are slipping the oil will smell burnt. if filters are plugged wont the bypass open?not sure if there is one on this.been a long time
 
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