K-Hart?

K harts are limited by the size of frame the REM builds for them. It is a REM toolbar that they are mounted to. Most of them have chloride in the tires, rebar in the frame, or both to get the discs in the ground. Being a double disc, they need weight on them to make them penetrate. The new opener looks pretty nice and well thought out. I have seen what they do in dry springs and would not consider one because they have a hard time closing the seed trench in some soil conditions and when this happens they don't get very good seed to soil contact. If it is wet they will throw some soil or even chunk out the furrow wall as the soil sticks to the turning discs, but this may be good for getting a black strip to warm faster in our cold springs (or are they warmer winters?).

We considered one a while ago, but they really aren't much of a deal unless you can get in on some government help to pay for some of the cost of the openers. I know that Allen's in Oyen has three sitting right beside the road.

Your probably right, that twin closing wheel design has only been used for how many decades on planters?

The other thing is to use a firming wheel that runs inside the trench, much like a keeton, except it rolls instead of slides. I don't know of any aftermarket makers of such a thing, but I have seen them in magazines.

Side note: Do you know of anybody running Keetons on any of our traditional seeding equipment Andy? I seen them at a show recently and thought about taking some home to adapt to our 3/4" knives on the air drill. I think it might help tame down seed 'splash' that we get when running high fan speeds in small seeded crops (canola), in order to push the high rates fertilizer through without plugging. Plus the added benefit of pushing the seed into moisture. Or they might just ball up into a big lump of mud and drag... I should get some, modify them to work and try it on a few openers, never heard of anybody doing that before on an hoe drill.

Great plains makes what is called a seed lok wheel that does what you describe. They are available on their drills. Deere 1890s and Case SDXs have firming wheels, and a company makes a poly fin that replaces the firming wheel on a deere (called The Fin, interestingly enough). The talk about firming wheels is that in the right (wrong?) conditions they roll the seed out of the trench. Keetons can ball up a little bit too, but they have a couple of different profiles available. Also, along the same lines of the keeton and your goal for reducing seed bounce would be what are called Rebounders by Schaffert (sp?). They don't firm seed but are made to corral it in the bottom of the trench on double disc openers.

I have also though about just a small piece of thing spring steel that runs against the ground behind an opener. Would firm the seed a little bit and control bounce. If it balls up, you could always put a little chunk of plastic on it to make it slippery.

One thing that acts like a keeton on a hoe is a technotill opener, although it brings soil in above the seed and then packs it all.

i bought a K Hart last year, i used a 5000 Flexi before that. i did have a few issues with germination in peas (big seeds) were the straw mat was thick; i had lots of straw from previous crop and i heavy harrowed making problem worse so this wasn't really the K Harts fault my Flexi 5000 would have put the seed in the ground in those spots but would have been buried so deep in straw it wouldnt have grown anyway. i do have the weight boxes but no chloride in tires; i will lode center section tires this spring. as far a depth control it is similar to the technotill; there is only about 1" of dirt covering seed at what ever depth the disks run. this year i did a excellent job chopping and spreading straw so with a bit of moisture and no hard frosts things should be better. K Hart does make mid row banders but i am using a blend of phos N and ESN down with the seed. K Hart has a new opener which looks really good and they also have a adjustable packer wheel for the older openers.I find K Hart is very simple to service and maintain; rotate the disks once a year and grease bearings once a season. and they pull super easy.

Most studies conducted in stubble height relate to potentially higher yields, more favourable micro-climates, increased snow catch, reduced soil erosion, fuel savings, the list goes on. That list really makes me want to reconsider our decision to run a hoe drill, which inadvertantly cannot deal with really tall stubble, especially in chemfallow.

I realize there is some drawbacks with disc drills, however I believe that the drawbacks can be considered minor nuisances when compared to the potential benefits.

It would be nice to see some disc drill comparisions at Rosetown areas next seeding demonstration, that is if they have it this year and I get time to go. I would really like to compare the seeding performance of other discs to the K hart, mainly to see if the extra cost of the others (especially the 3710) is justifed. Not too mention a comparision of the new parrallel linkage hoe drills and disc drills. Hopefully we get to see that this spring.