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So the seeds didnt germinate in the nh3 rows? Could it possibly be that where the nh3 went its much drier and softer therefore the seeds just didnt get proper seed/soil contact to germ?
I agree.
NH3 put down in the fall at 4 inches deep won’t be toxic to wheat the following spring even at 220 lbs/acre (I pretty sure)
 

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Discussion Starter #43
I agree.
NH3 put down in the fall at 4 inches deep won’t be toxic to wheat the following spring even at 220 lbs/acre (I pretty sure)
Well it did this time, no way the seed was anywhere as deep as the NH3 band.....nowhere close.

I thought that was what you were meaning but I do not know about or understand cation exchange and how it works.
It will be on a soil test. Higher number means heavier/tighter soil. This particular field is actually one of my lowest, 32.5 in top 6" where I have other fields up to mid 40's. Over 50 at deeper levels.
 

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Thanks SW. My soil is definitely tight. The powers that control this stuff won't let me install a field on an acreage I am developing. What is your best theory on the cause of the stripping from fall NH3? Dryer soil where the shank disturbed the ground last fall??? Problem fixed by that inch of rain theory that fixes differences in drills and seeding job! LOL!! Main thing is the crop is recovering and looks great!

That tight soil fractures and just does not flow and settle back into the trench behind an opener as well as sandy or mellow soil.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
What is your best theory on the cause of the stripping from fall NH3?
Well it just looks like there is a toxic area around the band keeping plants from growing, perhaps made worse by seed placed phos and dryness. Seed placed phos is last on my list of things to change because I've done lots of trials where yield craters when it isn't there.

Looking like broadcast urea in fall with some light tillage to incorporate it will be the best fit for me going forward. Maybe same in spring but then compaction from spreading and time constraints become an issue, as well as tillage drying things out. Looking at bigger spreaders and it's nuts what these things cost nowadays!
 

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Seed placed phos is last on my list of things to change because I've done lots of trials where yield craters when it isn't there.

That’s technically a difficult trial unless it’s done with phosphoric acid (0-54-0-2) which doesn’t have a nitrogen component in the chemistry. 100 lbs of 11-52-0 has 11 lbs per acre of safe plant absorbable nitrate immediately available in the seed row, but obviously in most field conditions for which ever reasons, MAP works well. I suspect there would be less of an effect on a test field with extremely high residual N levels, which is very, very uncommon, but maybe indicating something else is also going on in the seed row, especially on denitrified wet soils?
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Discussion Starter #47
That’s technically a difficult trial unless it’s done with phosphoric acid (0-54-0-2) which doesn’t have a nitrogen component in the chemistry. 100 lbs of 11-52-0 has 11 lbs per acre of safe plant absorbable nitrate immediately available in the seed row, but obviously in most field conditions for which ever reasons, MAP works well. I suspect there would be less of an effect on a test field with extremely high residual N levels, which is very, very uncommon, but maybe indicating something else is also going on in the seed row, especially on denitrified wet soils?
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I see what you are saying but the tests had an equal amount of N placed mid-row to compensate. I doubt the short time before the plants found that N was the factor in yield loss, especially in canola when no visible difference was observed. Also did trials with two kinds of low-rate safe liquid P, and both were lower yield than 11-52. Makes sense because of less actual P being applied.
 

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Its hard to believe the nh3 is the problem. My seedmaster puts the nh3 only an inch and a half from the seed. At rates varying from 80 n all the way up to 150 plus on the same field i have never seen any damage to the crop. But saying that all soils are different and maybe spring applied is different.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Its hard to believe the nh3 is the problem. My seedmaster puts the nh3 only an inch and a half from the seed. At rates varying from 80 n all the way up to 150 plus on the same field i have never seen any damage to the crop. But saying that all soils are different and maybe spring applied is different.
My agronomist who has several Seedhawk clients told me 150 max N I think it was if I was to get one of those units. He did tell me the Seedhawk/Master gives the best stand establishment though. Could be with those drills that when N is applied at seeding the plant germinates and gets going before the band spreads and affects the seeds? Would be interesting in those 150+ areas to see if your roots are growing into the band or staying away in the early going?

What I see here is the seeds placed right above the band simply did not grow, even though they were in moisture and had a 7/10" rain shortly after. I dug lots of seed up. The seeds close but not over the bands were somewhat less advanced than the ones furthest from the bands. No tillage was done between fall banding and seeding, and my disc drill doesn't really move any dirt. It was very easy to identify the cause of this. I just find it weird that after all that time the toxic effect is still there, but I guess when it doesn't rain...
 

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We didn't get all the nh3 on in the fall so had 2 rigs going one with a cooler and the other with a maxquip pressure system. Considering this was one of our dryer spring's for here and after seeing SWman's post I went looking for similar examples. Dug and found the nh3 band on 12" center's 4" deep and then looked at the seed row and could easily find canola plant's right on top of the band that seemed to miss the memo that might be a bit hot to stand on....:22:
 

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I see what you are saying but the tests had an equal amount of N placed mid-row to compensate. I doubt the short time before the plants found that N was the factor in yield loss, especially in canola when no visible difference was observed. Also did trials with two kinds of low-rate safe liquid P, and both were lower yield than 11-52. Makes sense because of less actual P being applied.

In your trials; the P that you reduced in the seed row, was that same amount moved over into the mid-row band as well as it’s associated 11% N content?

I have a single disc tillage tool that I sometimes use for shallowly incorporating wheat stubble after harvest. When I do that I usually see a lot of germination casualties right where each of its discs ran the fall before. This is when using a single disc drill at a diagonal to the fall tillage pass on a stale spring seedbed. If I ever do that again I would heavy harrow it before the drill gets there, or maybe not use that drill.
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Discussion Starter #52
In your trials; the P that you reduced in the seed row, was that same amount moved over into the mid-row band as well as it’s associated 11% N content?

I have a single disc tillage tool that I sometimes use for shallowly incorporating wheat stubble. When I do that I usually see a lot of germination casualties right where each of its discs ran the fall before. This is when using a single disc drill at a diagonal to the fall tillage pass on a stale spring seedbed. If I ever do that again I would heavy harrow it before the drill gets there, or maybe not use that drill.
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No this was a phosphate type trial comparing types of seed placed P. I just upped the mid-row N to keep that variable out when running only Alpine and Black Label. My N rates are usually so high that a few pounds of N won't be the difference anyways and this particular year wasn't max yield for the fertilizer anyways.

You think the path of the disc tillage is causing the seedbed to dry out?
 

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Few years ago before BG was doing they're agronomy trials we started splitting our phos between the seed row and midrow thinking we would take yield hit and it was actually one of our highest yielding plots. Now it's all split. It's just a swag but i think there's less phos tie up sitting in a hot band of sulfur.
 

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You think the path of the disc tillage is causing the seedbed to dry out?

Well in that situation it seemed to be a combination of a high crop residue content that was in the soil mix that filled the tiny trench left by the tillage disc. It was a wetter year, so I think it was more to do with poor seed/soil contact. None of the seed on those trenches was sitting on top of mineral soil. From what I’ve seen in the bigger picture from a more advanced disc but with only rolling baskets for smoothing, the problem can be erased with a harrow in the spring, but it would be better in the fall if there is still enough cover.

On sandy loam like much of this area harrowing tilled fields or standing canola stubble in the spring ahead of a single disc drill with all of its wheels and flatter field finish is a recipe for some fine surface powder and a dust storm.

On Joe’s point regarding moving P into the mid row. We have mostly been putting 38.5-7.5-7.5 analysis over there and use a couple of seed row blends to match crop needs, but haven’t done any trials because we’re just struggling amateurs.
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I think this thread (NH3 toxicity) is the most interesting post since farmer Tony’s first 8010 combine. For me anyhow. Go on please. Lol. I’m serious good thread
 

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I think this thread (NH3 toxicity) is the most interesting post since farmer Tony’s first 8010 combine. For me anyhow. Go on please. Lol. I’m serious good thread

We also have had similar situations to take into account on any new land that was planted with hoe drills for the previous crop. The low soil disturbance nature of a single disc drill and the gauge wheels that provide their depth accuracy tends to make them vulnerable to an existing narrow furrow field finish. Anyone changing to a single disc planting system will learn that they function best on a level surface.

Even if changing the planting direction by 90 degrees on existing disc drill planted no till fields, I think I would prefer to see it heavy harrowed at a minor angle to the new headings.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
We also have had similar situations to take into account on any new land that was planted with hoe drills for the previous crop. The low soil disturbance nature of a single disc drill and the gauge wheels that provide their depth accuracy tends to make them vulnerable to an existing narrow furrow field finish. Anyone changing to a single disc planting system will learn that they function best on a level surface.

Even if changing the planting direction by 90 degrees on existing disc drill planted no till fields, I think I would prefer to see it heavy harrowed at a minor angle to the new headings.
I'm gonna tap the brakes on this idea too. The NH3 was done at a 45 degree angle to the seeding with a 3/4" knife and the drill has 5" wide gauge wheels which tend to average any furrows/ridges out. On 7.5" spacing literally 2/3 of the field has a gauge wheel pass over it! Again good theory but with the wide gauge wheels and relatively good field finish after the NH3 unit I am pretty sure it isn't the cause. I like how you are thinking though!
 

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Well in that situation it seemed to be a combination of a high crop residue content that was in the soil mix that filled the tiny trench left by the tillage disc. It was a wetter year, so I think it was more to do with poor seed/soil contact. None of the seed on those trenches was sitting on top of mineral soil. From what I’ve seen in the bigger picture from a more advanced disc but with only rolling baskets for smoothing, the problem can be erased with a harrow in the spring, but it would be better in the fall if there is still enough cover.

On sandy loam like much of this area harrowing tilled fields or standing canola stubble in the spring ahead of a single disc drill with all of its wheels and flatter field finish is a recipe for some fine surface powder and a dust storm.

On Joe’s point regarding moving P into the mid row. We have mostly been putting 38.5-7.5-7.5 analysis over there and use a couple of seed row blends to match crop needs, but haven’t done any trials because we’re just struggling amateurs.
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Haystack on the old Deere disk drill you were putting NH3 down the midrow. Refresh my memory on this Bourgault disc drill, is it using NH3 midrow? I assume this 38.5-7.5-7.5 blend that you are putting in the Midrow is being combined with urea or NH3 for N top up. If it’s NH3 is there an issue with loss? Was told that the air flow from the dry fertilizer down the mrb will blow the NH3 out of the mrb trench.
 

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I'm gonna tap the brakes on this idea too. The NH3 was done at a 45 degree angle to the seeding with a 3/4" knife and the drill has 5" wide gauge wheels which tend to average any furrows/ridges out. On 7.5" spacing literally 2/3 of the field has a gauge wheel pass over it! Again good theory but with the wide gauge wheels and relatively good field finish after the NH3 unit I am pretty sure it isn't the cause. I like how you are thinking though!

I was referring to small hollowed out furrows not elevated ridges. It’s often only the furrows that remain after months of weathering, rain erosion and harvesting operations and they usually have crop residue in them. The very fact that the gauge and in some brands the packer wheel keeps the disc traveling on a level plane, will for example place canola too shallow on the old furrow depressions.

It can also be fixed sometimes by pressing the limits of planting small seeds too deep. Whenever I see germination issues like this in play it’s usualy already too late to fix with a harrow. I messed up some soybeans on a stale seedbed of recent breaking this year that had too many small divets in the surface. Hopefully this prolonged showery spell will save it now. A leveler stale seed bed piece is doing just fine as well as one that was lightly spring tilled to make it softer and flatter on the surface.
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Haystack on the old Deere disk drill you were putting NH3 down the midrow. Refresh my memory on this Bourgault disc drill, is it using NH3 midrow? I assume this 38.5-7.5-7.5 blend that you are putting in the Midrow is being combined with urea or NH3 for N top up. If it’s NH3 is there an issue with loss? Was told that the air flow from the dry fertilizer down the mrb will blow the NH3 out of the mrb trench.

The mid row banders on the 3720 referred to are strictly being used for granular fertilizer. The 38.5-7.5-7.5 blend is almost all of the applied nitrogen except for whatever amounts of nitrogen exist in the base products of the separate granular blends used in the seed row.

For example a 200 lb per acre application of the mid row blend per acre would net 77 lbs of actual nitrogen, 15 lbs of actual phosphorous and 15 lbs of actual potassium at the bands location. It just takes some fertilizer volume out of the seed row and away from the seedling.

We can manage this with just three different blends stored at the yard over winter. Technically I guess we could further blend those blends by using two tanks and meters in the air cart for a special situation, should it arise, but we have no such intention.

I did like the midrow NH3 on the Deere but it was a single shoot, so the seedrow was always overloaded with no option of moving some of that into the midrow.

I’m not fond of air delivery systems combined with NH3 in the same narrow furrow. Back in the day we did however build many successful units double shooting NH3 and liquid phosphoric acid ( 0-52-0-2 ). All very nasty stuff for the un-initiated. I think my acid dissolved coveralls might have all been disposed of finally by now.
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