Not sure, lot of choices to be had but a lot are "snake oil" as you mention, we haven't used much so can't compare a lot of products but seems to be a big push every year at a farm show in this area. One such booth a rep. asked where I was from, asked if I knew so and so, yes... Said they use this product, my mind jumped to the fact that often when they cannot get a corn field worked in the fall it gets the fire plow in spring. My thoughts: "Yeah, I'm sure that biologic is working to its full potential when you went and burned off the residue cover from the field and lost a bunch of OM now..."
Plant and Soil heath products
I have been overwhelmed with the amount of plant and soil health products lately and I know that most of them will work in some situations and not others. Looking for more info on what works and what doesn't. Soil type and moisture where you live are important in your replies. I live in a clay soil in Southern Alberta that normally produces about 60 bus/ac of spring wheat.
FUSARIUM
All the talk is bad soil health and too much fungicide spraying which is killing the weaker diseases and leaving the stronger fusarium species to grow without competition. Lots of claims that healthier stronger plants and soils providing more nutrients help more than fungicides. Products like humic acids, folic acids, foliar micros, foliar Phos, etc. Advice??
PEA LEAF WEEVIL AND OTHER BUGS
Lots of talk that higher plant sugar contents scares the bugs away. Is this true? How do I go about raising plant sugars and still producing good crop yields? Does this work most times or you just have to be lucky? I have noticed that later seeding than your neighbors tends to send the bugs to their crops also.
BETTER HEALTHIER PLANTS
I noticed years ago in my wheat that I had a plugged fertilizer tower in my wheat. The plants with no fertilizer were thinner, shorter, not as healthy and loaded with disease, where the fertilized ones had no disease. So a strong healthy plant should stand up to disease better. What about products like Alpine, Kuglar seed row liquid P that is supposed to get faster P uptake and bigger root systems? Are they like cheap insurance? Use the minimum liquid and top up with dry? Or humic acid seed treatments, or???
Bayer has been promoting using Raxil Pro seed treatment in cereals, spraying Proline on my canola, using Delaro (has proline in it) on my pulses and using Prosaro (has proline in it) on my cereals. That uses Proline in every crop at least once and sometimes twice if you seed treat. Does not sound like a long term healthy solution to me and I am a heavy user of Bayer products.
So again, I think most of these products will be "snake oil" for 60-75% of producers, but they must work for 25-40% of people and I want to know why they work for some. I have been a heavy user of N, P and S. My soil tests are very high in K and pH about 7-7.5, been 20 years no till.
So what products do you use and what do you think it helps with?
FUSARIUM
All the talk is bad soil health and too much fungicide spraying which is killing the weaker diseases and leaving the stronger fusarium species to grow without competition. Lots of claims that healthier stronger plants and soils providing more nutrients help more than fungicides. Products like humic acids, folic acids, foliar micros, foliar Phos, etc. Advice??
PEA LEAF WEEVIL AND OTHER BUGS
Lots of talk that higher plant sugar contents scares the bugs away. Is this true? How do I go about raising plant sugars and still producing good crop yields? Does this work most times or you just have to be lucky? I have noticed that later seeding than your neighbors tends to send the bugs to their crops also.
BETTER HEALTHIER PLANTS
I noticed years ago in my wheat that I had a plugged fertilizer tower in my wheat. The plants with no fertilizer were thinner, shorter, not as healthy and loaded with disease, where the fertilized ones had no disease. So a strong healthy plant should stand up to disease better. What about products like Alpine, Kuglar seed row liquid P that is supposed to get faster P uptake and bigger root systems? Are they like cheap insurance? Use the minimum liquid and top up with dry? Or humic acid seed treatments, or???
Bayer has been promoting using Raxil Pro seed treatment in cereals, spraying Proline on my canola, using Delaro (has proline in it) on my pulses and using Prosaro (has proline in it) on my cereals. That uses Proline in every crop at least once and sometimes twice if you seed treat. Does not sound like a long term healthy solution to me and I am a heavy user of Bayer products.
So again, I think most of these products will be "snake oil" for 60-75% of producers, but they must work for 25-40% of people and I want to know why they work for some. I have been a heavy user of N, P and S. My soil tests are very high in K and pH about 7-7.5, been 20 years no till.
So what products do you use and what do you think it helps with?
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Twix these biologics have the potential to help us out of the disease mess we are in. The problem is there is little to no scientific data documenting the efficacy of these different products. The use of roundup, fungicides, seed treatments, etc have likely altered the organisms present in the soil. I think there is great potential in this area but the for the most part the knowledge or data is lacking to guide a person at this current time.
Twix these biologics have the potential to help us out of the disease mess we are in. The problem is there is little to no scientific data documenting the efficacy of these different products. The use of roundup, fungicides, seed treatments, etc have likely altered the organisms present in the soil. I think there is great potential in this area but the for the most part the knowledge or data is lacking to guide a person at this current time.
I was hoping that in the vast membership base and guests on this forum that some have tried and can relate what they think works for them and what doesn't. Seems like it is always some farmer from 200 miles away tried it with great success or some hutterite colony. But assuming that these are small companies with no big advertising budget, I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The problem with getting participation is that this topic has the same effect as politics or religion when trying to discuss it.I was hoping that in the vast membership base and guests on this forum that some have tried and can relate what they think works for them and what doesn't. Seems like it is always some farmer from 200 miles away tried it with great success or some hutterite colony. But assuming that these are small companies with no big advertising budget, I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Who the products work for and how well they work depends upon history, not as much current practice. For example if you recently acquired a piece of land that say had some sort of berry crop on it several times in the past, it may have been subject to heavy fumigation and other extremely damaging pesticides in it's history. Now you acquire it and the crop yields of your rotation suck. You cant understand it, the soil tests show high to very high in all measured nutrients.
But the biology is so weak it can not convert or make available many of the nutrients. Your rotation crops may be subject to much higher disease pressure from a weakened soil biology etc., etc. So for that land, some of these "snake oils" may in fact work and work well. They may be just the microbe food that is needed to kick start some of the biology.
But you do have to be careful and make some efforts on your own to do small test areas within a field in question. Some products are not compatible with other products. Some liquids are not compatible with pesticides.
I haven't had much success with any. I feel the biggest driver why we have gone this way is that it is way cheaper and easier to get a biological approved and sold than a chemical. Most of these are made for very little money and have very large markups on them. Quickroots orobably costs around 10 cents a unit to manufacture and gets sold for around 6-8$ or whatever it is.
I was told Monsanto has a new biological that will come standard in theirncorn next year.
I was told Monsanto has a new biological that will come standard in theirncorn next year.
Oh farmers, the biggest suckers on the planet. Why do you think there is an endless list of "products" made specifically just for all the problems you have?
Peer reviewed multi site multi year research with solid data. Not opinions from X farmer who "felt" it worked.
Peer reviewed multi site multi year research with solid data. Not opinions from X farmer who "felt" it worked.
I find it funny that you call farmers suckers, then turn around and demand that "ALL" farmers join you in fighting for some super secret electronic code book that you claim will allow you to produce superior products for the farmer to use at a fraction of the cost.Oh farmers, the biggest suckers on the planet. Why do you think there is an endless list of "products" made specifically just for all the problems you have?
Peer reviewed multi site multi year research with solid data. Not opinions from X farmer who "felt" it worked.
Commenting on something you don't understand perhaps?I find it funny that you call farmers suckers, then turn around and demand that "ALL" farmers join you in fighting for some super secret electronic code book that you claim will allow you to produce superior products for the farmer to use at a fraction of the cost.
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https://greencoverseed.com/benefits-research
A few years ago I was leading an agronomy training seminar and the topic was weed identification. One of the participants said he could identify them all. He went to the first plant and said, “One quart” and the next weed he said “one quart” and the same thing for the next several in a row. He then said, “Why do we need to identify them? A quart of Roundup gets them all” How times have changed! Now it seems like Roundup doesn’t kill anything. Pigweeds, like Palmer amaranth, are a particular problem. Obviously, we need to figure out a way to kill the pigweeds that Roundup no longer does.
Pigweeds at first glance seem like a superweed. They can grow three times as fast as soybeans and can produce up to a 600,000 seeds per plant. If one plant goes to seed per square foot, that can result in over 2 BILLION seeds per acre. However, pigweeds have weaknesses as well. Their seeds are very small, making them very weak in the seedling stage with limited energy reserves. The seeds also require both nitrate and sunlight in order to germinate. Another weakness of pigweeds, when compared to soybeans, is that pigweeds cannot fix nitrogen like soybeans can and must rely on the soil for their fertility needs.
Of course, we could simply switch to different herbicides to kill the weeds. Some feel that soybeans tolerant to dicamba or 2,4-D will solve the problem, but it seems that those two compounds are becoming ineffective at controlling pigweeds in wheat stubble. Does anyone really think that exposing pigweeds to multiple shots of 2,4-D or dicamba per year will result in less herbicide resistance? Wasn’t that the same strategy that gave us pigweeds that glyphosate doesn’t kill? While rotating herbicide mode of action is definitely a wise strategy for preventing herbicide resistance, utilization of non-chemical weed control measures in addition to herbicides is probably even wiser. To many people, this means going back to tillage. However, research has shown that pigweed germination and growth is enhanced by tillage. Tillage also has the obvious drawbacks of reduced soil moisture, reduced soil organic matter, and increased soil erosion. So how can we possibly control pigweeds without herbicides or tillage?
One innovative method of aiding control of pigweeds in soybeans, as well as many other weeds, is to plant the soybeans no-till into the residue of a herbicide killed winter cereal cover like triticale or rye. There are two mechanisms at work here. The first is a phenomenon called crop allelopathy, in which the rye or triticale residue contains chemical compounds that act like natural herbicides that suppress pigweeds but actually seem to stimulate soybeans. Scientists have identified three compounds found in rye and triticale that have this effect. While this may seem far-fetched to some, remember that the herbicide Callisto was derived from an extract of the Mexican bottlebrush or Callistemone plant. The second mechanism takes advantage of the fact that soybeans are a legume and can make their own nitrogen, while weeds cannot. If corn was the previous crop, and was fertilized for optimum yield, usually there is a substantial amount of carryover nitrogen left in the ground at the time of soybean planting. If left alone, this nitrogen delays the time until soybeans nodulate (soybeans must become nitrogen deficient to trigger nitrogen fixation) and feeds weeds. Planting a winter cover crop of rye or triticale will scavenge this nitrogen and convert it into a mulch that can control soil erosion and conserve moisture in addition to controlling weeds. This nitrogen does not disappear, it eventually becomes available again as the mulch rots to benefit the crop after soybeans. The mulch of a cover crop also prevents sunlight from reaching pigweed seeds, and if the mulch is thick enough pigweed seeds can actually starve to death before getting to sunlight. Soybeans, with their large seeds, can emerge through a fairly thick mulch.
There is also an even more innovative method that has been found useful, and that is the inoculation of soybeans (as well as many other crops like sorghum) with a beneficial fungus called mycorrhizal fungi. These fungi occur naturally in prairies, colonizing the roots and acting like root extensions to help draw in both water and nutrients. They have been exterminated from most cropland, as they cannot survive long fallow periods without living roots. Mycorrhizal fungi have gained fame for improving the drought tolerance and nutrient uptake of crops, but have also recently been found to aid weed control. Many weed species, like pigweeds, lambsquarters, and mustards, are not colonized by these fungi and do not benefit from them, while most crop species like corn, soybeans, sorghum, wheat, and alfalfa, are benefitted. Thus inoculation does not actually kill weeds, but instead makes the crop roots more competitive against the weed roots. A recent study by North Dakota State University found that inoculating sunflowers with mycorrhizal fungi reduced weed biomass by 54%. The mycorrhizal fungi have an additional benefit that has also come to light. They secrete a lubricant called glomalin that dramatically improves soil structure and organic matter content. Inoculated soils have better rain infiltration, reduced compaction, and greater root depth, further aiding performance during drought in future seasons.
While they may not replace herbicides, the combination of mycorrhizal inoculation and a winter cover crop can provide a very synergistic effect for not only improved weed control but also the creation of a more drought tolerant field.
A few years ago I was leading an agronomy training seminar and the topic was weed identification. One of the participants said he could identify them all. He went to the first plant and said, “One quart” and the next weed he said “one quart” and the same thing for the next several in a row. He then said, “Why do we need to identify them? A quart of Roundup gets them all” How times have changed! Now it seems like Roundup doesn’t kill anything. Pigweeds, like Palmer amaranth, are a particular problem. Obviously, we need to figure out a way to kill the pigweeds that Roundup no longer does.
Pigweeds at first glance seem like a superweed. They can grow three times as fast as soybeans and can produce up to a 600,000 seeds per plant. If one plant goes to seed per square foot, that can result in over 2 BILLION seeds per acre. However, pigweeds have weaknesses as well. Their seeds are very small, making them very weak in the seedling stage with limited energy reserves. The seeds also require both nitrate and sunlight in order to germinate. Another weakness of pigweeds, when compared to soybeans, is that pigweeds cannot fix nitrogen like soybeans can and must rely on the soil for their fertility needs.
Of course, we could simply switch to different herbicides to kill the weeds. Some feel that soybeans tolerant to dicamba or 2,4-D will solve the problem, but it seems that those two compounds are becoming ineffective at controlling pigweeds in wheat stubble. Does anyone really think that exposing pigweeds to multiple shots of 2,4-D or dicamba per year will result in less herbicide resistance? Wasn’t that the same strategy that gave us pigweeds that glyphosate doesn’t kill? While rotating herbicide mode of action is definitely a wise strategy for preventing herbicide resistance, utilization of non-chemical weed control measures in addition to herbicides is probably even wiser. To many people, this means going back to tillage. However, research has shown that pigweed germination and growth is enhanced by tillage. Tillage also has the obvious drawbacks of reduced soil moisture, reduced soil organic matter, and increased soil erosion. So how can we possibly control pigweeds without herbicides or tillage?
One innovative method of aiding control of pigweeds in soybeans, as well as many other weeds, is to plant the soybeans no-till into the residue of a herbicide killed winter cereal cover like triticale or rye. There are two mechanisms at work here. The first is a phenomenon called crop allelopathy, in which the rye or triticale residue contains chemical compounds that act like natural herbicides that suppress pigweeds but actually seem to stimulate soybeans. Scientists have identified three compounds found in rye and triticale that have this effect. While this may seem far-fetched to some, remember that the herbicide Callisto was derived from an extract of the Mexican bottlebrush or Callistemone plant. The second mechanism takes advantage of the fact that soybeans are a legume and can make their own nitrogen, while weeds cannot. If corn was the previous crop, and was fertilized for optimum yield, usually there is a substantial amount of carryover nitrogen left in the ground at the time of soybean planting. If left alone, this nitrogen delays the time until soybeans nodulate (soybeans must become nitrogen deficient to trigger nitrogen fixation) and feeds weeds. Planting a winter cover crop of rye or triticale will scavenge this nitrogen and convert it into a mulch that can control soil erosion and conserve moisture in addition to controlling weeds. This nitrogen does not disappear, it eventually becomes available again as the mulch rots to benefit the crop after soybeans. The mulch of a cover crop also prevents sunlight from reaching pigweed seeds, and if the mulch is thick enough pigweed seeds can actually starve to death before getting to sunlight. Soybeans, with their large seeds, can emerge through a fairly thick mulch.
There is also an even more innovative method that has been found useful, and that is the inoculation of soybeans (as well as many other crops like sorghum) with a beneficial fungus called mycorrhizal fungi. These fungi occur naturally in prairies, colonizing the roots and acting like root extensions to help draw in both water and nutrients. They have been exterminated from most cropland, as they cannot survive long fallow periods without living roots. Mycorrhizal fungi have gained fame for improving the drought tolerance and nutrient uptake of crops, but have also recently been found to aid weed control. Many weed species, like pigweeds, lambsquarters, and mustards, are not colonized by these fungi and do not benefit from them, while most crop species like corn, soybeans, sorghum, wheat, and alfalfa, are benefitted. Thus inoculation does not actually kill weeds, but instead makes the crop roots more competitive against the weed roots. A recent study by North Dakota State University found that inoculating sunflowers with mycorrhizal fungi reduced weed biomass by 54%. The mycorrhizal fungi have an additional benefit that has also come to light. They secrete a lubricant called glomalin that dramatically improves soil structure and organic matter content. Inoculated soils have better rain infiltration, reduced compaction, and greater root depth, further aiding performance during drought in future seasons.
While they may not replace herbicides, the combination of mycorrhizal inoculation and a winter cover crop can provide a very synergistic effect for not only improved weed control but also the creation of a more drought tolerant field.
Sure would'nt be the first. Guaranteed wont be the last. But I'm pretty sure the pot (that's the one on the left) is calling the kettle (that's the one on the other left) black.Commenting on something you don't understand perhaps?
You've lost me, also wouldn't be the first.Sure would'nt be the first. Guaranteed wont be the last. But I'm pretty sure the pot (that's the one on the left) is calling the kettle (that's the one on the other left) black.
I think you're assuming i'm excluding myself from the gullible farmers pile. I am not.
But if you carefully notice a majority of articles about new stuff for ag today lists the product, and then several testimonials of real live farmers. Good peer reviewed data of multi-site multiyear data however is extremely hard to find.
A great example is Boron in canola. A careful meta analysis of all trials show zero effect. Yet, the ones selling it have testimonials and hap hazard trials showing fantastic benefits.
In regards to PGN's, if you don't know even what they are, its a topic best left alone.
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This topic reminds me of the last time I found myself behaving like one of Pavlov's dogs.But if you carefully notice a majority of articles about new stuff for ag today lists the product, and then several testimonials of real live farmers. Good peer reviewed data of multi-site multiyear data however is extremely hard to find.
A great example is Boron in canola. A careful meta analysis of all trials show zero effect. Yet, the ones selling it have testimonials and hap hazard trials showing fantastic benefits.
I was hauling grain with the volvo and the engine brake wasn't working. So while I eased down the many hills I would try things in the hope it would start working. It eventually did and on the next hill I found myself repeating the actions I had performed before but this time without a response. This was the ah ha moment because it failed to work, unlike the previous case. The success conditioned me to do it again expecting the same result.
This is why repeatability is important. Just because X happened doesn't mean Y is the cause or in any way related to X. Sometimes things just correlate. Or you are being experimented upon.
Not bashing anyone or being derogatory. I think it's fun when I find myself being a victim, or at least aware, of my own psychology.
My seed treatment dealer was telling me about a new product Monsanto has now called Duvet. Going to come standard on all poncho votive treated corn and or beans next year. It's about $2 a unit extra. It's chelated zinc edta and an amino acid complex that provides plants with a boost in vigor! Their trials show 26% root mass increase and 3 bushel gain on beans!
I'll try a keg maybe on my own farm but I have run similar products that claim same stuff and I have greater root mass but yield wasn't there in end. I'll plant about 4100 units of beans this year and if I were to do it all that's 8200$! Real money without real proven results but farmers have been known in the past to try "cheap" 2$ an acre products. I think that is what most of these products target. Small costs with high returns and really can't be proven wether they help or don't most times as lsd is more than likely always greater than actual differences found.
I'll try a keg maybe on my own farm but I have run similar products that claim same stuff and I have greater root mass but yield wasn't there in end. I'll plant about 4100 units of beans this year and if I were to do it all that's 8200$! Real money without real proven results but farmers have been known in the past to try "cheap" 2$ an acre products. I think that is what most of these products target. Small costs with high returns and really can't be proven wether they help or don't most times as lsd is more than likely always greater than actual differences found.
Coming from a career in academia before I returned to farm, what you said reminded me of this comic:This topic reminds me of the last time I found myself behaving like one of Pavlov's dogs.
I was hauling grain with the volvo and the engine brake wasn't working. So while I eased down the many hills I would try things in the hope it would start working. It eventually did and on the next hill I found myself repeating the actions I had performed before but this time without a response. This was the ah ha moment because it failed to work, unlike the previous case. The success conditioned me to do it again expecting the same result.
(https://xkcd.com/242/)
You're definitely barking up the wrong tree here, doorknob. And you're putting words in his mouth that he never said. The things Brian is doing can be understood and done by anyone with a bit of knowledge, inclination, and time. Furthermore he's not selling anything. And as they say in my other world, it's all up on github.I find it funny that you call farmers suckers, then turn around and demand that "ALL" farmers join you in fighting for some super secret electronic code book that you claim will allow you to produce superior products for the farmer to use at a fraction of the cost.
Wake me up once they make Rain in a bottle
Isn't this what a good agronomist does, sort the wheat from the chaff so you don't have too, chemicals, fertilisers, snake oils.
Glossy brochures go straight in the bin...
Glossy brochures go straight in the bin...
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
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