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Discussion Starter #1
I have a 354 perkins that came out of a MF 550. I have located some possible sources for dampers to replace stock crank pulley that will not do for applications in seed truck. I was wondering if it is possible just to slip on a turbo without major modification. I was hoping all I would need is to do is plumbing and find the oil outlet on the engine to hook up to the turbo. I don't know much about turbos though so I am asking here. I can do fabrication to mount the turbo, pipe the exhaust into it, and route the blown air as well as lubricating, but I just didn't know if the pistons were going to handle it. Ive heard that the pistons need to be replaced with a different kind for turbo applications on the perkins. The turbo is off a john deere 404 ci so itll definetly be odd fitting, but cheaper than buying. All it needs is new bearings and flanges and that is much cheaper than a new turbo...

And actually, if I could fabricate an adapter plate to mate the 404 exhaust ports to the perkins, itd work perfect as far as turbo fitting. The boost hose would have to be connected still, but thats not a big deal. What will be the issue on exhaust ports is spacing since its a 6 cylinder 404 vs a 6 cylinder 354. It won't be real far off, but more than Id like for good mating. A half inch plate would make a good adapter plate though if itd work....
 

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You want to put the Perkins in a truck? If you want a truck engine throw that boat anchor in the bushes and get a 5.9 cummins. They are cheap and make lots of power a NA Perkins won't.
 

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Why not just get turbo set up off 760 MF combine or 1130 MF tractor. I took one off combine and put on my tractor once. Not sure about your other concerns.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
You want to put the Perkins in a truck? If you want a truck engine throw that boat anchor in the bushes and get a 5.9 cummins. They are cheap and make lots of power a NA Perkins won't.
The cummins isn't free, the perkins is. Ive heard perkins has better low end torque then cummins, but cummins has better take off. For truck applications, cummins would definetly win out, but 2k for a motor if not more is not worth it if I can stick a 354 perkins in it instead for minimal cost.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Why not just get turbo set up off 760 MF combine or 1130 MF tractor. I took one off combine and put on my tractor once. Not sure about your other concerns.
This is basically a project truck. Trying to spend as little as possible. At the same time, theres not much of a project about it since we have to have it for hauling seed around in. Sometimes use it for a overflow truck when semi can't keep up. Sure, theres the option of just putting a more easily available system into it, but it also means more $. Trying to not spend to much on it. If the price mark goes to high, then itd be cheaper just to swap another gas back into it, but thats just not as cool lol. I would like to just get a turbo setup off a 760 tho, not a whole lot of those around.
 

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Whenever you ad a turbo or blower to natural engine, even a diesel, you run the risk of head gasket and other sealing means being compromised.

Some engines are forced air ready, but for certain markets they are left natural. If you know your perkins is forced air capable, then you're good to go. But if not, it may end up a futile exercise.

Some people were putting turbos on 6.2L gm diesels for a while, and they found out that they had to do a lot of machining on the block and heads to go to an individual cylinder seal to get them to last at all. One told me that it was impressive how good it went for the short time it lasted.:)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Whenever you ad a turbo or blower to natural engine, even a diesel, you run the risk of head gasket and other sealing means being compromised.

Some engines are forced air ready, but for certain markets they are left natural. If you know your perkins is forced air capable, then you're good to go. But if not, it may end up a futile exercise.

Some people were putting turbos on 6.2L gm diesels for a while, and they found out that they had to do a lot of machining on the block and heads to go to an individual cylinder seal to get them to last at all. One told me that it was impressive how good it went for the short time it lasted.:)
This is mainly what I was concerned about...how the actual engine would take it. I will say that a lot of 354 perkins are turboed and are built that way. Quite a few 354s the exact same as what we have are turboed in tractors and MF760s. Almost all marine applications have turbos. With that being said, I don't know actually if the one we have is forced air ready. I suppose I need to ask around and see. Sounds like one guy, if I am not mistaken, has already turboed his 354 with a turbo out of a MF 760...Hmmmm
 

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If I remember correctly, I think I read somewhere you are putting this into a F600 right? Why would you need to turbo it for something that small? Not trying to rain on your parade, but not only does the engine need to be able to handle being turboed, you'll need to have the pump set to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio. Possibly need to change out or have injectors re calibrated too. I just don't see a 3 ton needing that kind of power. Friend of mine has a mint 1974 with the small 331 V8 in it with only 4&2, has lots of jam for size of truck IMO. He can't haul much more than I can on my '67 Merc 1 ton;)

But if this is some kind of toy or something you're building, then have fun and good luck:)
 

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Typically, when you add forced air to a gas engine, you look for a low compression ratio engine. If you already have a 10:1 or higher gas engine, you run a lot of risk as the blower or turbo will raise that ratio now that even more inches of fuel air charge are pushed into the chamber.

On an older perkins, especially one with a lower comp ratio that use glow plugs to start, may get by with a few pounds of boost.

I like to tinker with stuff even though it never makes sense to anyone else. I dont do so much with engines anymore, but have gone to recycling older implements or doing metal fab. I still like to play with gears in transmissions and axles etc. But the education gained just tinkering and seeing if you can do it and make it work is priceless.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
If I remember correctly, I think I read somewhere you are putting this into a F600 right? Why would you need to turbo it for something that small? Not trying to rain on your parade, but not only does the engine need to be able to handle being turboed, you'll need to have the pump set to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio. Possibly need to change out or have injectors re calibrated too. I just don't see a 3 ton needing that kind of power. Friend of mine has a mint 1974 with the small 331 V8 in it with only 4&2, has lots of jam for size of truck IMO. He can't haul much more than I can on my '67 Merc 1 ton;)

But if this is some kind of toy or something you're building, then have fun and good luck:)
Well, the fact that the truck is getting a new motor is more out of necessity. It works good for hauling around bulk seed to the planter. Takes too long to fill up with bags. Its around 3400 pounds of seed when refilling. The turbo is kind of a toying around part though.
Yes, the truck is a f-600. I think it scales at 28k with a full load of corn. We rarely put any more than 12k on it for seed. It gets up to about 60mph empty, but 40 is tops with full load...to slow. I think its got a 330 something so a 354 diesel would definitely have more power than that dinky gas :)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Im with this guy, mainly because I've already done it.

http://www.thecombineforum.com/forums/64-fabrication-diy-repair/59273-cummins-swap-lots-pics.html


Cummins engines can be had very cheap if your looking in the right places.
I agree...but like I said though, this is a project that we are trying to spend as little as possible. We basically have a free motor setting around to rust. It runs fine and itd save a couple grand, less if I search long or hard enough. I honestly would rather have a bt cummins, but perkins is gonna have to do until it poops out too.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Typically, when you add forced air to a gas engine, you look for a low compression ratio engine. If you already have a 10:1 or higher gas engine, you run a lot of risk as the blower or turbo will raise that ratio now that even more inches of fuel air charge are pushed into the chamber.

On an older perkins, especially one with a lower comp ratio that use glow plugs to start, may get by with a few pounds of boost.

I like to tinker with stuff even though it never makes sense to anyone else. I dont do so much with engines anymore, but have gone to recycling older implements or doing metal fab. I still like to play with gears in transmissions and axles etc. But the education gained just tinkering and seeing if you can do it and make it work is priceless.
Dude, your so insane that I love it! I watched some of your vids, pretty cool stuff. Thats the kind of stuff I like to do. Its not fun shelling out 500k on a new tractor, but its fun to build your own tractor even if costs twice as much. Usually thats not the case though...
 

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Do you happen to know what the hp and torque rating is if this particular naturally aspirated Perkins 354 ?. Personally I've no knowledge about the engine so I am of no help there but wanted to get a feel for the power that it puts out to see if it could just drop in and work without doing any modifications as I imagine it can.

An example of doing exactly what you intend on only in this case it was an older vintage ( new at the time ) GMC one ton that had the 454 taken out and a Isuzu 352 inline 6 dropped in and fit up to the factory four speed and three speed aux behind it. Unfortunately it never had a turbo but shortly after Isuzu had a turbo-ed version but they had made internal changes, piston cooling and possibly compression change ( not sure on that ) and so forth. Now this N/A Isuzu smoked really bad when it was being loaded down and at higher elevations in the mountains it was god awful. So dad took his holiday towing "toy" down to California to a shop there that mounted up a turbo with some metal working geniuses that could totally re work his manifolds for the fit up and they never touched the fueling system at all, same injectors, nothing on the pump touched. They felt he would be safe in doing this rather then fueling it up and risking damage. So with no more fuel going in its not as if it gained huge gobs of power but it made a fair difference and was put on a dyno both before and after. Now it could use the fuel that was being dumped out as black clouds before and a larger exhaust pipe was put on for freer flowing with no muffler as the turbo quiets it down a lot.

As far as I know a diesel really doesn't care up to a point as to what the air fuel ratio is ... more diesel = more power to the point where its pouring out black soot because of not enough air to burn it properly, or blowing the engine up as its producing way too much power for what it was designed. I think at idle a diesel is said to run around a 80 to 1 air to fuel ratio and why an idling diesel can run on a given amount of fuel vs a gas engine that has to maintain that same fuel ratio at all times and uses far more gas to keep itself running for the same amount of time.
 

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Usually the compression ratio is higher on NA engines. Compare specs between a turbo and NA engine. The 354 Perkins I've seen we're hard starting, low power, and looked very complicated compared to a 5.9. I have a 5.9 you could have but I'm sure the freight wouldn't t be free. Those old ford gas engines are terrible expensive to repair. When the die up here the trucks get parked. The old Chevys stay on the road because its cheap to drop another engine in. It's fun to tinker though. Will you have to get a different tranny?
 

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Dude, your so insane that I love it! I watched some of your vids, pretty cool stuff. Thats the kind of stuff I like to do. Its not fun shelling out 500k on a new tractor, but its fun to build your own tractor even if costs twice as much. Usually thats not the case though...
Thanks. I'll take the insane as a compliment. :D

I agree. I dont care if it cost near the same to make my own. The huge grin on my face when I'm done is what people see. I'm working on a 6x6 right now putting tracks on it. Boss comes in after a few days of being absent, and saw the progress over the weekend. He says "by the fun you are having putting this one together, I know it will work".:) He's got me figured out now after 27 years.

 

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CPL is the key, different compression ratios for turbo and non turbo , would talk to a Perkins dealer, if engine wasn't desighned for a turbo you will have a time bomb, Scott.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Usually the compression ratio is higher on NA engines. Compare specs between a turbo and NA engine. The 354 Perkins I've seen we're hard starting, low power, and looked very complicated compared to a 5.9. I have a 5.9 you could have but I'm sure the freight wouldn't t be free. Those old ford gas engines are terrible expensive to repair. When the die up here the trucks get parked. The old Chevys stay on the road because its cheap to drop another engine in. It's fun to tinker though. Will you have to get a different tranny?
Well, I can't say much about perkins except it didn't start hard hooked up directly to truck motors. That thing roared to life as soon as we got the crap out of the injector lines. As far as power, I don't know. Ive heard many say that it has plenty of go, while others say it has nothing. I do agree with 5.9 being better though. Besides that, its .1 liter bigger. As far as the tranny, I doubt it. Ill probably make a bell housing or just simply make an adapter plate for the sae 3 pattern on the perkins. Ive seen it done both ways. Im not for sure on imput shaft length though. If its to long, I can just make a thicker adapter plate, but if its too short, then I dnt know. Maybe shorten the bell housing.
We were looking at what motor this truck had in it...has a 330 HD. Even tho a cummins 5.9 will of course beat a 354 perkins, a 354 perkins will beat a beater 330 HD lol.
 

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Well, the fact that the truck is getting a new motor is more out of necessity. It works good for hauling around bulk seed to the planter. Takes too long to fill up with bags. Its around 3400 pounds of seed when refilling. The turbo is kind of a toying around part though.
Yes, the truck is a f-600. I think it scales at 28k with a full load of corn. We rarely put any more than 12k on it for seed. It gets up to about 60mph empty, but 40 is tops with full load...to slow. I think its got a 330 something so a 354 diesel would definitely have more power than that dinky gas :)
I think you and others misunderstood the point I was trying to make in my post...I'm not knocking the idea of putting that Perkins into your truck, not at all...what I was trying to say is leave it natural and don't screw up a good thing by hanging an unnecessary turbo on it. That 354 natural will have more than enough power for that 3 ton.

My comment about it being a toy or something, was if you was doing this up as a play toy/zoot mobile whatever and not a working truck;)

There are flywheel housings out there that will make it really easy to bolt it up, just need to find one, one example of one being used was in some diesel NH bale wagons. Unfortunately a lot of those conversion plates and such that were being produced and sold years ago aren't anymore today. I looked into it a few years ago when I was going to repower an '85 GM 1 ton with a blown 6.2 with a natural 354...I searched high and low and never did find anything so went with plan B and acquired a pickup with another 6.2. Those two trucks been sitting a hundred yards apart for over three years now, but that engine still hasn't jumped from one to the other:(
 

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Look at combine wreckers, a lot of Massey 860 combines came with a 354 Perkins turbo. I also have a 550 with a 354 they are a very good motor.
 

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many cummins 250 hp engines were produced, they were based on the still popular 855 cid engine. they were non turbo as built and you could buy the turbo kit and add it without any modifications to the actual engine. it was called a smoke kit, and all it did was provide more combustion air which increased the efficiency of the burn as it made the compression ratio higher due to volumetric efficiency. the hp gain was 40 hp, no fuel system mods, a true bolt on kit. it is true that diesels make more power with more fuel added, if you do not alter the fuel system there should ideally be less smoke, better power and fuel economy, likely a little higher temp in the combustion chamber due to more complete combustion. if the pistons are oil cooled by oil cooling jets it helps to dissipate the heat away from the crown of the piston, but at the same time if you make more power, you create more heat so sizing of the cooling system is important. just adding a turbo should not really be detrimental, if you add more fuel the system may not. effectively the turbo captures waste energyfrom the exhaust in the form of heat and uses it to boost atmospheric air pressure and offset the losses of friction and design of the air system thus creating better efficiency and offsetting pumping losses. ot may be that installing a turbo decreases internal cylinder temp on some designs , due to the leaner fuel to air ratio also, ideally you should have excess oxygen in the exhaust, and no unburned fuel to maximize the efficiency and no smoke. turbo sizing is important so as to not overboost, but also so the turbo lag time is not overly long and create a severe hesitation when you put your foot into it. many mid 70 engines were fitted with a aneroid fuel control that allowed limited fuel to be delivered to the injectors until the turbo boost began to build pressure, thus minimizing smoke on acceleration. do some ser no checks and find out if the pistons from yours are the same as a turbo engine, i am sure you can find out lots of info on the net as to compression ratio of na vs turbo engines for the perkins. consider a larger oil pan capacity to help offset the heat that may arise also.
 
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