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Does anyone ever get tired of having to go to a dealership for every little thing? I sure do. It especially sucks when you live 1.5 hours or more from any single dealership. I try to troubleshoot before I call, but even then, they come out and go through the same steps as I previously did before coming to the same conclusion as to what the problem is. What makes it worse is when you tell them what part you probably need and they fail to bring it.... Because they think it's probably not that. So you pay mileage upon mileage for something you could have fixed yourself if you had access to the resources they do. So then you buy a $5000 or more part, only to have to call them to come out and program it, because they won't give you the secret software to do it yourself. To make matters worse, you end up talking the tech through the instructions so that it actually gets done. I'm so over it!
 

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Pretty silly. Everything is a conspiracy.

Oh...I have one...

Equipment manufacturers make it difficult and expensive to fix and also invented COVID so that they can eventually force you to get one of Bill Gates' vaccines with added RFID microchips injected into your body so they can control what access you have to their tech and also randomly make it fail so they can charge a service call and equipment access fee to get it fixed.

Actually, this is kind of fun.
 

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EDIT: misread @primer. Sorry about that.

I too am weary of paying money like it's going out of style for parts that cost up to 100 times the actual cost of manufacture, service calls that can't figure out the problems (despite the fancy laptops and diagnostic software that I can't access), the proprietary nature of the computerization of things, and the unwillingness of big companies to grant us even basic information like a full electrical and hydraulic schematic of our machines.

But the sad thing is most farmers don't actually care, as primer's post shows, despite the right to repair campaign being waged in the US and the obvious benefits of having small repair shops able to work on things. We gripe and grumble, but that's about it. That's why politics gets the most amount of airtime here on the forums, despite the importance of this issue.

It's very interesting that in other parts of the world, dedicated enthusiasts have done some amazing things like building their own open source ECU for car engines (which works very well apparently). If the right people came together, there's a lot that could be done to open up ag machines. It's a bit harder when a tractor costs a heck of lot more than a used car to play with.

Personally I have started collecting a few of the things I've learned about over the years in a hopes they'll help others. How sensors work, GPS systems, etc. And quite a few like-minded people hang out over at the agopengs discourse forum.
 

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I thought there was a lawsuit underway with Deere on exactly this issue. Not sure if it ever was resolved? Huge problem, along with paying little bits of money to subscribe to everything you want to use. ie. gps, bin sensors, tv.

Tech companies can't make money on actual tech, so they charge fees for the right to use disguised as upgrades.

Another good example is the AutoCart guys that Raven just bought. Great idea to have autonomous system running your tractor on grain cart. It definitely has a fit, and value. Here's the kicker... their idea was to sell it to you for $25k, then you paid an annual subscription of $10k to use it. Most of us can hire the guy for less than that.
 

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In Europe manufacturers have to provide service manuals. Even on AGCO if you can trick the website that you are in Europe you can download them. Here pony up!
 

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Farm equipment manufacturers are going the way of software firms, moving to subscription-based service (and revenue) models, as opposed to "pay-as-you-require" or "fix it yourself". Local dealerships have been implementing this concept for decades with their "Annual Certified Service" promos on combines and power equipment, attempting to lead you to believe that your used piece of equipment will be worth more at trade-in time, that is, if you participate in the program. (Deere has been infamous for this with tractors and combines). An element of my full-time career is software-related in the commodity-trading industry, so I am seeing an inside perspective on this; - the similarities are more than coincidental.
 

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I fear it may someday turn into the perfect storm...with farmers like myself and young ag employees taking the brunt of some flawed vision...

People are nature and nature has a way of screwing up the best laid plans...and it is also indescriminate...

Hopefully farmers can help flatten the curve, he, he...
 

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The biggest factor is people don't understand is how a business operates. When picking up the phone the assumption is you are phoning your local dealership which is a homogeneous entity. Meaning the dealership is operating as a complete unit. It is isn't. The service department is separate from the sales department which is separate from the parts department and all that is separate from the accounting department which is separate from management. Each one is responsible for itself first. And there is no real coordination. The only coordination is the drive for budgets and objectives being met.

So, when you tell a service guy you think the electronic hydraulic valve block needs replacement, bring one out. It doesn't happen. The service guy doesn't go to the parts shelf and grab one with a wave to the parts guy saying I will bring it back if I don't need it. And the parts guy also does not give the service guy 3 other items just in case. It doesn't work that way. The service guy and parts guy are working for two different companies in essence. If you want that part, you have your job order open, you transfer the part to the service department assets and do all the paper work. It is now the service department who owns it. So service guy comes out to install and finds out he doesn't need it, customer was giving some wrong info over the phone. So now service guy has to return it to parts department and do paperwork and perhaps some other internal BS. And of course there is the chance the part returned in not done properly and it stays on the service departments books till it is maybe found a month or two later as being an issue and someone in accounting gets it sorted out.

That's just one scenario. I also understand how an item that you can get for $20 becomes $120 when bought through a dealer. Been there, done that many times. I tell the guy where to buy it elsewhere because I need the $120 to cover all the paperwork fees. It's how things work.

We may not like any of it. But that is the problem with big business vs mom and pop shops. And I can get into how the parts and service departments are always struggling to get more profit and revenue to meet their objectives set in their branch. Objectives that no doubt go higher each year because the corporate costs keep going higher. Meaning the overhead of the corporation for management, engineering, advertising, promotion, environmental, building, etc keeps going up according to the top level people so they essentially pass the costs down to the individual operation level. And so each person in that department at that branch is trying to get an extra buck to meet objectives to pass up to the corporate level. And I can get into how, through all this, a company like Deere manages to keep piling on more corporate debt. But best not too.

And we can talk about techs coming out that don't really know what they are doing but then we need to start talking once again about meeting objectives at the local dealership in regards to revenue vs cost (ie lower wage employee vs higher/experienced) and we can get into the fact that it's a no-brainer that local management should simply pay experienced techs more because it will gain profit in the long run. But then we need to get into corporate human resources and how they basically set wage levels across the operation and so local service department manager does not actually have a lot of say in what he pays that experienced tech before the tech walks out the door to a new job.

I am speaking from what I lived in as a service tech for a few big corporations in the electrical field. Not specifically to Ag field. But I am pretty sure corporate models work the same elsewhere.

You want it to change. You need ma and pop shops in operation who have full say in the business from top down. So the service guy can take a piece off the parts shelf with just a sticky note IOU. But, it won't happen any time soon.

I could get into proprietary software and all that stuff too and how it fits the budgets. But that enough for now. By the way, I did lots of quotes and jobs with yearly maintenance programs - fixed cost, we come service your equipment. I can get into how some customers like that idea, especially from an accounting and insurance viewpoint.

One thing I hope for is I hope more entrepreneurs learn on this and start becoming ma and pa service shops. That one guy who quit the dealership because of what I mentioned and now comes to farms and goes through your combine. I hope that one guy becomes three. And there is an operation like that every 30 miles. And they have the software and even stock some common items that they know they will likely need through the season. It's how I have worked in the past. And it's how you get good service and away from the big corporate model.
 

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Thanks for the tip about Baltic Diag. Expensive stuff, but probably well worth it compared to the cost of the machine and the cost of service calls. Especially if a farm has any younger guys with experience and interest in computers and technology. Technology can be a great thing. It doesn't have to be a black box money pit. With the right tools it can be as understandable as hydraulics or mechanical principles.
 

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The biggest factor is people don't understand is how a business operates. When picking up the phone the assumption is you are phoning your local dealership which is a homogeneous entity. Meaning the dealership is operating as a complete unit. It is isn't. The service department is separate from the sales department which is separate from the parts department and all that is separate from the accounting department which is separate from management. Each one is responsible for itself first. And there is no real coordination. The only coordination is the drive for budgets and objectives being met.
Great points. Of course it didn't used to be this way and it certainly doesn't have to be this way. There was a time when even salesman carried a lot of clout to arrange trade terms that included service. Our local Case salesman who recent retired lamented this fact on a couple of occasions. Back when the dealership was local, he had the power to write checks as it were. RME came along and all of a sudden this kind of thing was gone and the shop rates doubled. Service is fine for the most part, but it definitely isn't better than pre-RME days.

I can't help but think that a lot of things with the economy and the way business is driven these days (debt-based economy) is going to implode at some point in the distant future.
 

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A bit of a bizarre comment, @primer. Perhaps from the stress of the season and being awake at 1 in the morning.

@stonevalley's complaint is completely legitimate. I too am weary of paying money like it's going out of style for parts that cost up to 100 times the actual cost of manufacture, service calls that can't figure out the problems (despite the fancy laptops and diagnostic software that I can't access), the proprietary nature of the computerization of things, and the unwillingness of big companies to grant us even basic information like a full electrical and hydraulic schematic of our machines.

But the sad thing is most farmers don't actually care, as primer's post shows, despite the right to repair campaign being waged in the US and the obvious benefits of having small repair shops able to work on things. We gripe and grumble, but that's about it. That's why politics gets the most amount of airtime here on the forums, despite the importance of this issue.

It's very interesting that in other parts of the world, dedicated enthusiasts have done some amazing things like building their own open source ECU for car engines (which works very well apparently). If the right people came together, there's a lot that could be done to open up ag machines. It's a bit harder when a tractor costs a heck of lot more than a used car to play with.

Personally I have started collecting a few of the things I've learned about over the years in a hopes they'll help others. How sensors work, GPS systems, etc. And quite a few like-minded people hang out over at the agopengs discourse forum.
Sorry, I should have made my wording more clear. I was calling the conspiracy theories and the lack of interest in right to repair silly. Wasn't calling the OP or his ideas silly. I think he's right.

I am a little stressed and very sore after contorting myself into what feels like every position in the kama sutra with 2 combines to get them ready for harvest so this idea is fresh in my mind.

I am 100% right to repair. I also don't believe those who don't see it as a problem really are giving enough thought to the problem.

I am absolutely pissed off at CNH at the moment for closing down MyShed and cutting easy access to parts lookup and diagrams which now puts an extra burden on the parts counter. The only other option is the really terrible NGPC that requires FLASH of all things to use. What kind of horrible system is that...
 

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I think the advent to "disconnected customer service" arrived around the same time as the role of the "Service Advisor". I'm sorry, but when I have a problem, I just want the f#%king problem dealt with; - don't try and sell me on "service promos and packages". For example; - my (new at the time) 2003 Dodge Ram Diesel had a tendency to pull to the right at speeds exceeding 80 kmph, despite countless tire re-balancing and alignments. The service advisor suggested one of the service promos, despite viewing the lengthy service history on the vehicle. When I suggested a mechanic take it on a road test, the service advisor "advised" me that, since this was a flat-rate shop, it would be difficult to convince a mechanic to road test the vehicle since the "open road" was a 20 minute drive out of town; - they wouldn't be paid for it. Had I not known the dealer principle personally, I'm not sure where this scenario would have lead me; - probably to a smaller RAM truck dealer.
 

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Case must have made the change in the last few days then because I was using the online parts thing just the other day. Now it gives me this crappy remade site and all the old links people may have posted are now broken. Thanks, CNH. I did find the diagrams, but you can't search for anything anymore, at least that I can find. I searched for "sensor" for example and it just shows a bunch of parts, not the diagrams where the parts are located. Even the dealer tells me it sucks.
 

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I do not buy new equipment. The few pieces of equipment I have purchased has been great. The dealer is great to work with. For that reason I would like to say that the dealer is Torgerson's out of Ethridge. For any piece of equipment I have purchased they gave me a pdf service manual with full schematics. Just this week they loaned me the tool to remove my rotor from my 8120. I will get it again to install it. Their service department is getting zero work from me at the moment. Parts department has been great. I can sit there and compare prices with case, A&I, worthington, who ever. I have not gotten a single negative thing about this. I ordered a few things from A&I through them. Did that after they asked if I wanted an A&I price. They still tried to get the sale when they asked about A&I price. That is good business working with me. Anyway, they have been great.

I see a comment on MyShed. The new parts look up is much better, if you can find it. I couldn't look up prices before. Now it is easy. It is a good change IMO.

Diagnostic software and not having access to it. I wished they would list it like any other tool to purchase and make it so aftermarket guys like snap-on can work with equipment better. It is a tool, a tool many are not used to having to use. SOme monitors can do a lot of the diagnostics already. Having to have a part programmed so it works once installed is absolute BS in my book. We have the monitors and web interface to get this done easily. There should be zero reasons we HAVE TO have a dealer come out. To be honest. I have never had to have a dealer come out. My newest machine is a 2014 Miller sprayer. I have spent the money for the software. I find it very annoying they wouldn't tell me what the software was. I had to spend a few hours researching that they use a parker hydraulics interface and use their software. I bought it from Parker and downloaded off the net. I have never found a machine I can not buy a service manual for a reasonable price.

I hope my horrible communication skills don't confuse things to much here. I am not going to proof read what I just typed. I believe right to repair is very important. I also wonder how much is simply not knowing how to repair. Not knowing how to and not having the right to are very different. Equipment is getting more and more complicated to repair and diagnose all the time. Most the dealer techs I have ran into don't know how to diagnose stuff with out going step by step through a service manual. Then they still don't really know what they just did. That takes a lot of time. I would like to see more apprentice programs again. Just can't learn enough in a few years of schooling and little real experience.
 

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The techs figure they don’t have to learn how things work to figure out what’s wrong with them. Computer will just tell you what’s wrong.
 

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Case must have made the change in the last few days then because I was using the online parts thing just the other day. Now it gives me this crappy remade site and all the old links people may have posted are now broken. Thanks, CNH. I did find the diagrams, but you can't search for anything anymore, at least that I can find. I searched for "sensor" for example and it just shows a bunch of parts, not the diagrams where the parts are located. Even the dealer tells me it sucks.
My NH MyShed app for android stopped working a couple months ago. When you click "My Models", the first thing that comes up is "This app is no longer supported. Please download MyCNHI Store". When you download that crappy ass app and run it, all it does is launch the web browser and take you to www.mycnhistore.com. On my phone, whenever I tried to use it, I couldn't do anything without many errors occuring selecting even parts on the front page. Completely turned me off of that experience.
 
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