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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hard to tell sarcasim.... tier 4's BS and i think its more of a urea than NOS... lol

atleast there going the way of urea and not like deere...

Dad was contacted a while back by case asking which he would rather have... after he answered them they said well what if in another 5 years unless something big changes we will have to use urea anyway....

well guess we will use it...


Adding once a week would be fine...as long as its simple like they claim and isn't a issue then i guess it won't be terrible.....

sorry to be so negative......i just don't think many are impressed with tier 3's so far and im not sure how this will be better
 

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Not sure if this topic has been discussed here but its probably the most important advance that case will come out with in the next year. Apparently the tier 4 engine will be here in the 4th quarter of this year, so buying equipment for year 2011 should allow all the bigger engines to have this technology.
Basically, it will bring fuel efficiency back to where it was before tier 3 emissions! The sticking point will be the nitrous oxide that might not work great in the cold weather and the fact that it will need to be filled every 7 days or so.
For our farm this is a small price to pay to get fuel efficiency back in line. We run a 480 and 530 quad with two 9120s combines. We basically run the quad tracks at 1750 RPM but it doesnt seem to matter, the old diesel gauge just falls like a rock! lol
I was gonna flip all this machinery again but will wait I think till 2011, plus our dealer doesnt want it anyway cause he has too much stuff on the lot! lol

Very excited about the new advances, was a sad state when our fuel bill was one of the biggest fixed costs per acre on the farm the last 3 years!
 

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A tier 4 engine is basically a tier 3 engine with Urea injection added to it. Its still going to have EGR and in most cases a DPF. Urea is for controlling nox [sp?] gas emissions and does nothing for controlling particulate emissions thus the need for a Diesel Particulate Filter. Fuel economy is still going to suck, it might be worse. There is only going to be more electronic garbage to go wrong, urea to buy and machines are going to cost 10% more. To sum it up we are just getting screwed in another set of government unfunded regulations.
 

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A) Agco has an iT4 engine with no EGR on it. Most fuel efficient tractor ever tested in Nebraska and Europe.

B) Final Tier 4 will required EGR and maybe DOC/DPF. Deere is going with a DPF system, which means they also need the EGR.

C) SCR engines are more fuel efficient because they are optimized for power and fuel production, not for exhaust gas recycling. SCR actually helps with particulate emissions because the combustion process is optimized (again because exhaust gases are not recirculated).

D) Agco's SCR equipped tractors cost the same as EGR equipped versions. And SCR is probably cheaper to manufacture than EGR too. Small additional tank, pump, metering, nozzle and catalyst chamber, and ECU. Sounds a lot better than DOC/DPF. And about filling an additional tank... no big deal. Either way you'll have to fill up either a smaller AdBlue tank or the diesel tank. Personally I prefer filling up on AdBlue than diesel


E) I must be the only person in the ag world to agree with the emission regs... I want my kids to live in a clean world, but it sounds like most people don't care about anyone who will live after them. Just my .02

Nick
 

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I believe that JD has fessed up and said some of their equip would also go to the SCR system. Correct me if I wrong but I believe I watched a video on Farm Industry News where a JD rep stated that himself.
 

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A) Agco has an iT4 engine with no EGR on it. Most fuel efficient tractor ever tested in Nebraska and Europe.

B) Final Tier 4 will required EGR and maybe DOC/DPF. Deere is going with a DPF system, which means they also need the EGR.

C) SCR engines are more fuel efficient because they are optimized for power and fuel production, not for exhaust gas recycling. SCR actually helps with particulate emissions because the combustion process is optimized (again because exhaust gases are not recirculated).

D) Agco's SCR equipped tractors cost the same as EGR equipped versions. And SCR is probably cheaper to manufacture than EGR too. Small additional tank, pump, metering, nozzle and catalyst chamber, and ECU. Sounds a lot better than DOC/DPF. And about filling an additional tank... no big deal. Either way you'll have to fill up either a smaller AdBlue tank or the diesel tank. Personally I prefer filling up on AdBlue than diesel


E) I must be the only person in the ag world to agree with the emission regs... I want my kids to live in a clean world, but it sounds like most people don't care about anyone who will live after them. Just my .02

Nick

I may have typed to soon as to what the Ag company's are doing to meet the new regs. I mainly based my statements on what the new diesel pickup and OTR trucks are doing. The 2010 1/2 Ford, GM and heavy Dodge all have EGR, DPF, and SCR/urea injection. From test results that I have read fuel efficiency has not been improved and operating cost has taken a jump because of the increased manufacturing/initial purchase cost and the extra cost of DEF-Diesel Exhaust Fluid. A diesel engine option in a 2010 pickup truck is 12 grand+. DEF is projected to cost about what diesel costs. My thinking is it is going to end up costing much more tho as DEF is urea our main nitrogen source used in fertilizer. In the next few years as more and more diesels world wide start to use urea just think what its going to do to fertilizer prices. It also has several problems in its self, mainly its very corrosive and it freezes. So the whole injection system has to be heated. The government is always screaming about conserving natural resources but their very regulations cause large reductions in fuel efficiency and increased usage of other resources [Urea] to meet their regulations. What's next?, CO collectors that scrub CO from the exhaust, bottle it and require us to pay to put it in some type of storage?! I better quit I'm probably giving someone some new ideas to make our life harder and our bank accounts smaller.
 

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Officially Deere is going to use DOC/DPF in all its products for iT4. However SCR may be used to meet Final T4. However I find it a little bit scary that all manufacturers but Agco have yet to release iT4 products and they seem to keep their customers in the dark. Agco has done a good job at marketing SCR, so this marketing work will also benefit CNH. However it appears to me that Deere has done very little to help understand DOC/DPF. Are they afraid of farmers reactions... or are they not ready???

I'm looking forward to this summer's intro. They technically have to release updated 8Rs, as well as the 7R and 9R series. And iT4 combines and choppers too. I doubt this will happen all in one shot. They will have to pay big fines for every Tier 3 engine they sell after Jan 1 2011, unless they have some "credits" for starting to sell Tier 3 engines before they had to. The overall feeling I get from many people in the industry is that Deere is not as ready as it should, and may be struggling with some unexpected consequences of using DPF (specially heat load).

Nick
 

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I may have typed to soon as to what the Ag company's are doing to meet the new regs. I mainly based my statements on what the new diesel pickup and OTR trucks are doing. The 2010 1/2 Ford, GM and heavy Dodge all have EGR, DPF, and SCR/urea injection. From test results that I have read fuel efficiency has not been improved and operating cost has taken a jump because of the increased manufacturing/initial purchase cost and the extra cost of DEF-Diesel Exhaust Fluid. A diesel engine option in a 2010 pickup truck is 12 grand+. DEF is projected to cost about what diesel costs. My thinking is it is going to end up costing much more tho as DEF is urea our main nitrogen source used in fertilizer. In the next few years as more and more diesels world wide start to use urea just think what its going to do to fertilizer prices. It also has several problems in its self, mainly its very corrosive and it freezes. So the whole injection system has to be heated. The government is always screaming about conserving natural resources but their very regulations cause large reductions in fuel efficiency and increased usage of other resources [Urea] to meet their regulations. What's next?, CO collectors that scrub CO from the exhaust, bottle it and require us to pay to put it in some type of storage?! I better quit I'm probably giving someone some new ideas to make our life harder and our bank accounts smaller.

Remember that highway emission regulations are approx. one Tier ahead of off-road applications. Which is why SCR, DOC/DPF and EGR are all combined. However this may very well be what's waiting for us for Tier 4 final in 2014. As far as your comment on SCR... if you compare an engine with EGR to one with SCR for emission treatment, you will find fuel savings of up to 5-10%. Considering you will use AdBlue at a rate of up to 3% of fuel consumption, this leaves you with at least 2% fuel saving over EGR. AdBlue is corrosive, so tank is in plastic, with stainless steel piping. It has to be heated, but heat comes from the engine coolant. It also has to be cooled in the summer (now that's more of a problem... I can't remember what Fendt and Agco are using for this part). But it is still better than having to replace a $5000 particulate filter every couple 1000 hours.

As I said I agree with setting more aggressive emission standards. However I will have to agree with you that there is no point in reducing emissions if it means burning significantly more fuel. Might look into that for a paper at school
However the main reason why I find this emission/aftertreatment technology interesting is that it will probably help make some kind of breakthrough to improve significantly fuel consumption. SCR is the starting point. Agco has produced the most fuel efficient tractor ever tested by using SCR. And it doesn't cost anything more that EGR when you buy the tractor...

Nick
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
But why do these have to be cleaner than the air you breath kinda machines???? I mean it would be handy if you have JD equipment that way you can run it in the shop while your working on it in the shop all winter long


but really do we need cleaner than the air you breath motors?????
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Agco markets tier 4 motors well just sucks at tractors,combines,chainsaws,and anything else with a motor...
 

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[/quote]

Officially Deere is going to use DOC/DPF in all its products for iT4. However SCR may be used to meet Final T4. However I find it a little bit scary that all manufacturers but Agco have yet to release iT4 products and they seem to keep their customers in the dark. Agco has done a good job at marketing SCR, so this marketing work will also benefit CNH. However it appears to me that Deere has done very little to help understand DOC/DPF. Are they afraid of farmers reactions... or are they not ready???

Nick[/quote]

You ask if they are afraid of farmer's reactions -- probably yes, but I spoke with a tech in the Case area at the Farm Progress Show last fall and he said Case had selected a direction, BUT was not fully committed for this reason -- rapid technology developments. He said that technology was changing so fast that their approach was to not put all their research eggs in one basket and find out 4 months later that they picked the wrong basket because of a breakthrough in another direction. He said that Case had a time table in which to lock in, but didn't see a need to promote a choice until then. This leaves them with more options. I think most companies are skiddish about customer reaction, but this rep seemed more skiddish about who might find the tech breakthrough first. He did say that the first year would be a very interesting one with Tier IV.

As for me, I'm glad to have 2010 models to ride out the early years of Tier IV.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
That was probably smart on there part....i mean why bother with all the B.S.... I think Detroit is as well or at the time cat decided to go out i know detroit was strongly thinking about saying F this place is BS were out of here...

lol

Don't blame them
 

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Why would tier 4 engines be more fuel efficient? Lets see, hmm they said the same thing when tier 3 came out over tier 2? Also taking into account where all this info is coming from about global warming..... so who actually believes that this is coming from scientists. Actually more appropriately activists - so when it comes down to it - 2011 fuel bills will be worse than now. That's great, consume more energy and accomplish less. Global warming and emissions contributing to it is the biggest farce ever dreamed up by mankind. This will be the unifying issue that brings about a one-world government in the end times! It's all about control!
 

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That and Cat probably has some internal problems. There is a Cat plant in this area. From what I heard, if Cat can't be #1 then they are willing to walk away from the market. Someone said that was one of the reason for leave the Ag market. I'm not sure I believe that, but Cat wasn't making any gains in the Ag market, so they opt-out. I would not be surprised if the same holds true for the OTR truck market.
 
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