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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello My farmer friends,
I was wondering if any of you have any links or info on TKW effects on wheat plants.
I grow Carberry HRSW and was playing around with germination test, and i noticed that a small percentage of my sample had nice big kernels that were north of 40g tkw. I have the means of taking it out for seed and wondered if there is value in this artificial selection. Anybody care to chime in with their own experiences on this fact. even though wheat sucks for profit, i still think there is a lot to be gain by refining my farming practice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks, i know how to calculate all that, but i was wondering about some tricks or tips to establish what would be OPD for your field, a blanket statement of 25-30 plants per square foot does not seem to be very scientific, i tried 250 plants/meter, and it was too dense for some of my land. i was wondering if some people had insight on what procedures or experience they had to determine that OPD for their soil types.

Also if some seed growers have ever played with artificial selection in there years of seed growing, to see if there was some evolutionary benefit growing only the top 1% of seed, could you potentially develop a seed continuously supports higher than average TKW.
Reason i am asking is, i notice the wheat plants are generally the same year to year on my soil, approx same tillers, same kernels per head, no matter what variety. if i could boost my TKW on my plants with the same plant density and the same kernel count, lets say by 15-20%, and since a bushel is by weight i just increased my yield by weight with the same amount of plants and kernels as previous years. I want to grow lead LOL. i am trying to quantify if selective breeding is something i can do to get more profit out of my grain.
But really thanks for the links, i will add them to my bookmarks.
 

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a blanket statement of 25-30 plants per square foot does not seem to be very scientific,
I agree!

Every time I hear a recommendation for X plants/sqft, I ask what row spacing is that for? I'm always told it doesn't matter.

Then I tell the person that it must matter. After all, if I took 30 plants/sqft over an acre, (that's 1.3million seeds) and put them in a single line down the middle of a 200' x 200' piece of land, the average is still 30 plants/sqft. But there's no way I'm getting my 60 bu/ac target yield off that land! They always look at me like I'm nuts......

Andrew
 

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Thanks, i know how to calculate all that, but i was wondering about some tricks or tips to establish what would be OPD for your field, a blanket statement of 25-30 plants per square foot does not seem to be very scientific, i tried 250 plants/meter, and it was too dense for some of my land. i was wondering if some people had insight on what procedures or experience they had to determine that OPD for their soil types.

Also if some seed growers have ever played with artificial selection in there years of seed growing, to see if there was some evolutionary benefit growing only the top 1% of seed, could you potentially develop a seed continuously supports higher than average TKW.
Reason i am asking is, i notice the wheat plants are generally the same year to year on my soil, approx same tillers, same kernels per head, no matter what variety. if i could boost my TKW on my plants with the same plant density and the same kernel count, lets say by 15-20%, and since a bushel is by weight i just increased my yield by weight with the same amount of plants and kernels as previous years. I want to grow lead LOL. i am trying to quantify if selective breeding is something i can do to get more profit out of my grain.
But really thanks for the links, i will add them to my bookmarks.


Interesting concept just cleaning the biggest seeds out, run it over a #8x3/4" screen or bigger...

At the same time just because you are increasing TKW I don't think your volume weight would increase
 

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I agree!

Every time I hear a recommendation for X plants/sqft, I ask what row spacing is that for? I'm always told it doesn't matter.

Then I tell the person that it must matter. After all, if I took 30 plants/sqft over an acre, (that's 1.3million seeds) and put them in a single line down the middle of a 200' x 200' piece of land, the average is still 30 plants/sqft. But there's no way I'm getting my 60 bu/ac target yield off that land! They always look at me like I'm nuts......

Andrew
Of all the good stuff you've written and while you are mathematically correct that is the most ridiculous example I've ever seen in an otherwise rational topic.:rolleyes:
Oh well, guess you're just making a point.;)
 

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Of all the good stuff you've written and while you are mathematically correct that is the most ridiculous example I've ever seen in an otherwise rational topic.:rolleyes:
Oh well, guess you're just making a point.;)
Yes, I am just making a point, Don. ;)



Obviously, on the other end of the spectrum, is a perfect grid. So for our 30 plants/sqft example, that would be a grid of roughly 2 1/4". (Kind of hard to find a 2 1/4" spaced drill though!)

Both of those examples average 30 plants/sqft over the 1 acre. But obviously very different come harvest time.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of Western Canada wheat is seeded between 7.5" and 15" which is obviously much closer to the 2 1/4" spaced grid than it is to the 200' spaced lines.

My point in all of this is that one piece of data does not tell the complete story. Which comes back to CP's statement:
a blanket statement of 25-30 plants per square foot does not seem to be very scientific
Where was the 25-30 plants determined to be optimal? (dryland SK? irrigation AB? MB RRV?)
Yearly rainfall?
Tillage system? (zero til? min til? conv til?)
Fertilizer rates and placement?
Fungicides?
Too many variables for a researcher/agronomist to simply say that 25-30 plants/sqft is ideal. I actually shoot a bit higher than that and aim for 35.

Andrew
 

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All the work done with canola shows no correlation between normal seed size, large, and yield.

Since Kansas is about 40 years ahead of us, a timely study :)

http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/historicpublications/Pubs/SRL74.pdf

In the UK, the trend i thought was to less plants, for less lodging, more tillers, more PGR's etc.

But short season here, more mainstem heads mean quicker harvest and better quality.
 

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I don't know about plants/sq foot , everybody has to figure that out himself but I read about 20 years ago a study from germany regarding the optimum row spacing for cereals. In their test plots they found out that the best row spacing or the optimum yield is a ratio of inter row spacing to row spacing of 1 to 4. So if you have every inch of row one kernel you should have 4 inches of row spacing. In other words in a theoretical world you would have to adapt your row spacing to your seeding rate :confused:.

I think it makes sense to sort out the biggest kernels if you can as it gives more robust plants anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am starting to grow my own seed stock after introducing a lot of new diseases because of too much off the farm ingress., i pick my best field pull back on my seeding rate to give the plants a place to stretch their legs, i harvest it separate, and clean it to my specs, which is a lot higher than what a seed grower could make a profit on. In only allowing the best of the best to be allowed to reproduce the following year, you would think, just like a pedigree animal producer that by controlling the lineage that you would eventually only have plants that were prone to large seeds. This is the direction i am going to proceed, i was wondering if anybody else had tried this.
 

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kansas study interesting

Not sure that you could relate the wheat performance to canola, but if you did it would fly in face of of the people who say you need to increase seeding rate to account for heavier tkw. Guess the one other point that had not seen, but would support higher plant densities in our country is less weed pressure which depending on spraying window can be issue.
 

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I am starting to grow my own seed stock after introducing a lot of new diseases because of too much off the farm ingress., i pick my best field pull back on my seeding rate to give the plants a place to stretch their legs, i harvest it separate, and clean it to my specs, which is a lot higher than what a seed grower could make a profit on. In only allowing the best of the best to be allowed to reproduce the following year, you would think, just like a pedigree animal producer that by controlling the lineage that you would eventually only have plants that were prone to large seeds. This is the direction i am going to proceed, i was wondering if anybody else had tried this.
I think along the same lines execpt i cant try it as i dont have cleaning capability. The only downside risk i could forsee is that if im not mistaken wheat is not self polinating therefore over time you will lose generic purity as pollen will blow in from surrounding fields. That being said all wheat is derived from crossbreeding anyway and hybrid vigiour is one of the main "enhancements" comingfrom crossbreeding BUT then there also could be issues down the road when selling the wheat as purity or lack of could come into play. I think its a great idea and depending where you are and what variety you are doing this with i'd possibly be interested in buying some seed...
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I agree with everything you are saying, i want the wheat to evolve into its own pedigree if that is appropriate to say. I have never yet have had a wheat tested for variety yet, but then again who knows down the road.
I am using Carberry because of the original traits that i like, short strong straw for lodging, ease of thrashing, fusarium resistance, and it is awned, which i like, to make it harder on the midge to get there little butts over the kernels lol.
As for seed selling, this variety has a PBR on it, but i would like to see what a guy has to do to get sanction as a seed seller on this variety, as i would like to go into this direction
but it will take a some generations to see if there is some shift in the direction i am aiming for. With the way farming is going there is so much volume, and i have no chance to expand, so i might as well go quality.
 

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Ahhh yes i forgot about the pbr's. Gotta protect the seed companies that sell us the seed that we helped fund the pb's to develope for us to grow... But thats another thread lol. Carberry is an ok variety but i hate awned wheat cuz its so itchy and the awns get stuck in everything. Also carberry is not a great variety to straight cut as it shells out on the ground if it gets pretty ripe. Getting back to purity though i heard a farmer in my area seeded winter wheat cleaned from his bin and when he delivered to the elevator they said it just barely passed for purity and now with these general purpose spring wheats around it might not take long for a cwrs to be contaminated with a cwgp. They must do some testing to as there is the new variety declaration policy when delivering to the elevators. I hope you keep us posted on how things progress.
 
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