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Discussion Starter #1
Looking at trading a one year old 8010 for a new 9120 with tracks or adding a older Cat on tracks. We are wet and last fall was terrible. The way it looks is will be years before back to some normal as some ground has feet of water on it and just keeps raining over 3 inchs in last week alone. Looking for some suggestions on both options if we go the trade route what is the deal with the small tube rotor I have heard mentioned. Our crop mix is beans, corn and a little wheat with occasional acres of barley, rye, millet and even sunflowers a few years back. We run 40 foot head in wheat/beans and 16 row in corn running one grain cart on floaters behind Cat and hauling with 5 semi's. We are spread out a bit around 45 miles from end to end with the londest haul to bin site 30 miles. How is the transport speed of tracks both red and yellow? Are the tracks worth the money, like 70 grand more by time you figure it out with rear wheel assist and options or would we be better to buy a used Cat on tracks for the real wet stuff? If we go the Cat route what should a guy look for or stay away from?
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

Will you have another combine on the farm? How many acres total? What percent of the fields have water or drainage problems? Do you deep till or no-till? What are you expecting for yields this year. Answering these questions will help us better answer your original question.
good luck
TigerCat
 

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Re: More info on our operation

Alright here is more info as not sure what to do but would like someone elses 2 cents that might help me see something I have been missing or been there and would do differently if had chance too.

Have added land the last year, so total tillable 4500 acres but was not able to get it all in becasue so wet. So we have planted around 3200 acres 1100 corn, 1950 beans, and 150 wheat but I am guessing at least 200 of potholes and wet spots in what was planted that are now under water. With all the water on a lot of what we have planted looks like it will be wet for a while not just this fall. Our normal crop mix 2000 corn, 1500 bean, and 1000 wheat but varies as weather and markets just like everyone else. We run from notill on HEL land to conv. till on pivots (730B DMI) and even some sand. We are not lucky enough to be in an area to tile as most doesn't have a drain, mainly we have been wet since the mid 90's here in NE SD but nothing close to how wet this past year has been. Are looking to tile a couple of field that are next to a creek for drain but takes time and must dry out first. We had mostly all of it planted spring 2008 only like 10 or 20 acres between it all not planted. Combining in the mudd then snow not fun even if it was 175 to 200 bushel corn. Now have a half section that we got maybe 40 acres total planted and ducks are swimming around in some spots of what is planted. Crop looks good but is very late most of corn just finished tasseling. The beans look good but late as well even wheat it just getting ripe, normally done with harvest end of July 1st week of August at the latest.

Do not really want or need to add second combine as labor is always hard to come by during harvest besides would have cost in additional heads and maybe even another grain cart. We have always done around 3500 to 4000 acres every year with custom work on top of our own before the added land, so in normal years not a problem to get the arces covered. That said last fall was tough it was so wet most fields had a number of spots with water standing all the way across so could not even get across till it froze up and still got stuck a few times mainly with the grain cart. Then the snow came what a mess.

Was looking at the econ. side if would be smarter to buy used track machine say $75,000 and sell in few years if it gets dry again. Or bite the bullet and trade spending another $100000 plus for the new tracked 9120 not knowing what resale will be in a year or two when its time to trade. We put about 250 to 300 hours a year on a machine and have liked trading every two or three years but the cost of the machine has really gone up and not sure the tracks will hold value. Not really enought of the tracked red ones out there to get a true idea if will hold value it really doesn't look like they have for Cat machines, those that are 5 to 10 years old do not seem to get a big premium for the tracks over duals.

As for the rotor question it looks like most guys with the 9120s are running a small tube rotor. I have never seen one and wondering the pros and cons for our crop mix as we have only ran the standerd rotor years ago then specialty rotor followed by the AFX which we first ran back in 2002 when it was still being tested. Have ran a AFX since and had never heard of the small tube rotor till tony's post last fall.

Thanks for any input or help you can give it would be appreciated.
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

Heres what i would do. Buy a 8120 with tracks. Id say you dont really need a 9120, im guessing you would not be able to keep it moving with one grain cart. I see Titan has a used one for sale. Then take the money you saved and put tracks on your grain cart.
If it was my operation, i wouldn't even be afraid of a 7120(maybe you can't get those with tracks, dont know) with a 16 row cornhead, if i was only using one grain cart.
You have the same labor issues i have and probably many others and i would say they are only going to get worse, so definitely stay with one combine.

This probably didn't help any, but it may give you some different ideas.
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

Can't really help you but wondering where your at in NE SD that you're so wet. I'm south of milbank a lil ways and we're as close to perfect as you get here. Knock on wood!!!

good luck with the combine decision
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

From an economic standpoint, it makes more sense to me to get one larger machine and do it all with one rather than adding a second combine. All of your maintenance is centered on one machine and one header and you eliminate one operator from the labor side of the equation. You also have only one combine depreciating, not two. So from a balance sheet perspective, that is the way I would go. There are certainly operations that make 2 or multiple machines work very well - and they are very productive, but I'm saying that for maximum efficiency (utilization of assets), the fewer machines the better. That said, tracks would also be at the top of my list for machine must-haves as well. You will be able to go and harvest sometimes days before the wheel-combines can - but also assign some value to the reduction in compaction that the tracks give you. That is certainly worth something. The track combines will also ride better in the field - very nice to operate. In my opinion, the tracks are easily worth the money in a scenario like the above. On the Cats, the RWA is automatic with tracks - you cannot get a track combine without RWA, and you shouldn't anyway. The red tracks I have been around went about 17, 18 tops. The Cat tracks run 15.5 for the 575R and 585R, while the 595R will run down the road at 20. Now let me muddy the waters a bit for you and say that if I were going to pick one big track combine, the 595R Lexion would win pretty easily. The Lexions have a superior track system that is smoother riding, and the wheelbase is longer which results in a better ride and better weight distribution. Running a large cornhead on a Case, you will need some cast or CaCl in the rear wheels as they are light on the rear. Lexion is much more stable. Overall, in my opinion, the Lexion is a superior performing machine with better longevity, especially in an operation with many crops. As to the small tube rotor, it is nice in wheat and soybeans, and should be in rice also (which is probably a big reason for its design), but in corn it doesn't work. The standard AFX rotor is A LOT better in corn.
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

Regional Dealer with a local branch has a new/used Cat585 traded in that has never been used it is 15k less than a used 8010 on tracks and that has 400+ hours on it as well as the red one will not be availible till the guys new is in. What size is the 585 is it compare able to an 8120 or larger as we have run our of power with our 8010 on some of our long hills especially if you try and unload going up hill. The power issue is one reason we were looking at the 9120 with tracks, maybe the tracks alone would help a lot as would not be cutting in as far as with duals. All of these combines and heads are getting very heavy and compaction is much worse when we are so wet. We have been running a red combine since the 70's will be hard to get everyone to agree to switch but are considering it as already run Cat for tractors and have had excellent results.

As for where we are just south of North/South Dakota border so about 80 NW of Milbank. Had chance over the weekend to go south for a ways and amazing how nice things look as you get 30 to 50 miles south. What is not in water looks great here just late so harvest will be real tight if we don't freeze early have just had like 5 or 6 new dryers go in our area so lots of guys ready for the wet corn. We are still going to get thru the fall without replacing dryer as most years we only dry maybe a quarter of the corn and have 80k of wet holding so has worked out in the past a side from last year having to dry just about every acre even some of the beans.
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

I don't think you'd like the 8120 on tracks unless you chipped the engine. I'm just guessing but I think the tracks alone will take over 50 hp just to make them go and maybe more if it's cold out.
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

theirs 2 8010 with tracks for 315000 each in elbow lake. ST rotor works fine in corn I have one shelled 3500 acres with ot last fall no i heard nuts here. don't need weight with awd on 8120 or 9120 with 16 row head. for now I would not buy a st rotor unless your prepared to work with it as it is what coming down ther road. but it's guys like me that have to figure it out for everyone. if you buy a lexion buy it cheap because they arn't worth much most places. as for ride the quad system will ride as well and go faster on the road. at least a 585 I have a neighbor with one and it's real slow. 9120 with tracks will go in the mud better than a lexion as they are direct drive not friction. 1st hand report from the delta last year, and watch my water video. FT
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

Lexion tracks work very well in mud with no slippage problems. We've seen plenty of mud to have proven this time and again. Regardless of whether its red or yellow, if you're stuck in the mud with one, you're still stuck. Both will have real advantages in reducing damaging compaction, but the Lexion does ride better and handle the larger heads better from a machine balance standpoint and feederhouse strength. The Lexion tracks take less power than wheeled counterpart machines; on the CaseIH system, I'm not entirely sure. There should be a power consumption advantage in that the track is riding on top of the surface and not constantly trying to climb itself out of a wheel rut, but the parasitic loss in the positive drive system of the Quadtrac is higher than Cat's system, although it is not usually significant. For power, you may want to consider the larger class 9 size machines (or chipping the class 8 models). A 585R is a pretty dead-on match to an 8120. The higher the moisture the corn, the better the 585R will be; it can clean and keep the corn in the machine where the 8120 will begin to struggle with shoe loss as the moisture goes up. As for buying them cheap, buy either of them cheap if you can. Each brand has areas where their resale is very strong and areas where they are weak, particularly where the early 8010s went out and got a black eye right away. More important to buy the right combine for performance and overall satisfaction in my line of thinking. The green guys can buy based on resale and Save Time Seeding...
 

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Re: Update and thanks

Thanks for all the help and explainations. Here is where we are our dealer has located a 9120 with tracks and ST rotor already built that is availible but doesn't have the numbers together but said would be more than when he first mentioned trading to us this winter. So well he is still getting his numbers together I am going to go to an auction tomorrow that has 4 or 5 old cat combines on it and see what they look like and sell for. At least I will get a little better education on the cats as there just aren't many in this area I only now of three with in 50 mile cirlce and two of those got trader for other colors in the last few years. We do have a real good dealer as far as service and parts for cat with in 60 miles.

Our 8010 went into the dealer for updates and a few warranty things a month ago and is still not done as they had a couple parts back ordered I am told. It is frustrating as it seems none of these companies want to carry any parts, in our case it is the gear and shaft on the top of clean grain elevator that needs to be replaced at just under 300 hours.

Thanks again.
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

yeah all companies are like that... don't have it but we will soon...oh...thanks!!!
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

I busted the top shaft in the old 8010. ruined the elevator. no parts anywhere. lucky it was the last day of harvest. think they sold her. good deal. had bearings go out of the unloader augers...no parts. they make all the bearings in kits. I just ordered them all to keep on hand. i have a great dealer, but their is just to many parts anymore. might get a new green tracked tractor, that will scare the heck out of them
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

Over half of the JD tracked machines sold are piled up at the dealership here. Hard surfacing problem on the gears in the transmissions. Yikes. No parts, no tractors. Some weren't even at 100 hours yet. So Yes there is a difference.
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

Lol....i thought thats the benifit of going green besides haveing 5 dealers near by they can get the parts.... yet when my grandpa/uncle needs something for some reason those 5 dealers half the time still don't have what they need.

thats just bad luck we all share tho.. i said that comment because when they first had a track tractor u sat there at the farm show and everything was the same looking...even the d**n diesel tank's...... i wasn't trying to be an a**... it was just way to similar...
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

That statement might be true, but it sounds a little bit dramatic to me, hopefully that problem will go away with the ivt transmission.
 

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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

That statement might be true, but it sounds a little bit dramatic to me, hopefully that problem will go away with the ivt transmission.
Nothing to do with the transmission, a hose designed for 200 psi use on a 600 psi application,
hose would fail, draining all the oil out of the differential.
Can't speak to the number of failures but there was a lot.

Don
 
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Re: Trade for 9120 on tracks or add old Cat on tra

gettin back to the topic.
In your situation I would go with a used cat that would have 200-400 hours on it.
Buying a used cat would save you money on the huge devaluation of the cat combines. (in our area anyway)
I would buy a 585 on tracks. Like was sayd before cat will keep going ones gettin tough.

On the other hand have you tried rice tires with RWA? last year we combined beans in water (not in our field) and the rice tires just keep going through neighbour without rice tires had to avoid the low holes and let us do them for him.
 
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