I'm working on an older Morris chisel plow/deep tiller.... the CP 725 ... it's a 24 ft. model with cylinders that are plumbed in series, the outside ones are down when the machine is down, the 2 inside cylinders are fully extended. I'm familiar with the annoying cultivators that used different size pistons as you go down the series, but this is different. The cylinders were starting to leak so I took them all in for new seals. Now I can't get machine back in sync, and the cylinders won't lift the machine straight off the ground for transport. The instructions for the IH air seeder made by Great Plains was also plumbed in series, but on that one you just started with all the cylinders disconnected and moved the oil down the line as each one extended. This one doesn't work that way. There are no ports to move the oil to the next cylinder, it depends on the oil on top of one piston moving the next. This leaves 2 challenges... a) you must remove all the air to prevent compression, and b) all that air needs to be replaced with the correct volume of oil or the cylinders won't move in sync. I've tried manually filling the cylinders one at a time while the machine was retracted, and will try it again with the machine jacked up off the ground and the wheels extended, but this is driving me knuckin futz.... any suggestions?? My next move might be to make T's with long hoses to raise and lower each cylinder individually with another tractor.... working with this system makes me realize why Morris was looking for receivership protection...
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whtbaron
F'n Morris Hydraulics
I'm working on an older Morris chisel plow/deep tiller.... the CP 725 ... it's a 24 ft. model with cylinders that are plumbed in series, the outside ones are down when the machine is down, the 2 inside cylinders are fully extended. I'm familiar with the annoying cultivators that used different size pistons as you go down the series, but this is different. The cylinders were starting to leak so I took them all in for new seals. Now I can't get machine back in sync, and the cylinders won't lift the machine straight off the ground for transport. The instructions for the IH air seeder made by Great Plains was also plumbed in series, but on that one you just started with all the cylinders disconnected and moved the oil down the line as each one extended. This one doesn't work that way. There are no ports to move the oil to the next cylinder, it depends on the oil on top of one piston moving the next. This leaves 2 challenges... a) you must remove all the air to prevent compression, and b) all that air needs to be replaced with the correct volume of oil or the cylinders won't move in sync. I've tried manually filling the cylinders one at a time while the machine was retracted, and will try it again with the machine jacked up off the ground and the wheels extended, but this is driving me knuckin futz.... any suggestions?? My next move might be to make T's with long hoses to raise and lower each cylinder individually with another tractor.... working with this system makes me realize why Morris was looking for receivership protection...
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I know what you guys are saying, and that works with the cultivators... this one is different. There is no way for the oil to bypass at the top of the stroke. I took them back to the shop that changed the seals twice, and even went so far as to buy another used set just to pull apart. The depth control is still on the original cylinder and I had them all marked (as well as the hoses) so they went back on the same places. Yukon is perplexed.... I'll try sodbuster's suggestion again, but I've been doing that every time I tried to bleed them.... I think I have enough parts here to make a T connection to each cylinder separately so that might be next.
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I swore I wasn't going to buy another Morris because of the hydraulics.... I've seriously thought about putting Princess Auto cylinders on it and plumbing it in parallel like everyone else, but for now I just want to get it going so I can do the fall tillage.
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Well... just tried it for another hour..... 4440 with good hydraulics, 1800 rpm..... smacked it up and down to warm up the oil.... held it in the up position for half an hour.... spent time in the down position..... no difference. Beginning to wonder if the mechanics mixed up the internals when they had them apart. I only took one of the 2nd hand cylinders apart (#1 with the depth control) but it didn't have a bleed hole at all. This machine isn't like the cultivators with the cylinders getting smaller across the machine... they are all the same size.
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Page 10 hydraulic schematic
https://www.morris-industries.com/wp-content/uploads/Magnum-II-Service-Manual.pdf
Well... at least now I know why the wing system has the overload valve....
https://www.morris-industries.com/wp-content/uploads/Magnum-II-Service-Manual.pdf
Well... at least now I know why the wing system has the overload valve....
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I've done that with the cultivator cylinders, but from what I've seen of these ones, there's nothing to put upside down...
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New tips.
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The devil is in the details. Ever notice how many problems get solved at 4 am? I "think" I've got it. There's a few things in the link that MF cowboy posted that bothered me. #1 is that the chart says I have 6 tires when I clearly only have 4 so it's not 100% correct. The previous owners had 14" wheels on the wings and it's apparently supposed to have 15's so those will be getting switched back, but the disturbing news was that cylinder #4 (the last one in the circuit) is not over tire #4 (you know.... like a "normal " manufacturer ).... it's over tire #3. Sooo.... while I was being very careful to make sure #1 went back in the right place, and the end cylinder went back in the right place, I wasn't being as careful with the two normally extended ones in the center, since they are both the same, right? Wrong. If the cylinder over #3 tire is the end cylinder, it's the only one that doesn't bypass and will be different internally. Ergo, and to-wit, if some to-what mixed up the two middle cylinders (or their internals for that matter) then the correct cylinder for the end of the circuit is not in the right place, and would explain why the oil isn't moving past #2. I think I need to switch the 2 middle cylinders... or failing that, at least finding out which cylinder has the internals for the #4 position. Wish me luck...
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Well.... she made it to the field today.... finally. I started out by checking the cell phone pics I took last year before I took it apart. All the cylinders and hoses were in the correct place. Then I swapped the two main frame cylinders. As suspected, no change... but at least that told me there was no difference in the operation of the two of them. Back to cylinder #1 which has been suspect from day one and was the reason I took them back to the dealership last year to be checked after they put all new seals in (and yes, I had the depth control rebuilt at the same time). They assured me everything was working the way it was supposed to and that the cylinders were assembled correctly. I disconnected cylinder #1 entirely and hooked the other 3 to the tractor. After 2 cycles they went up and down perfectly, so now I knew the issue was cylinder #1 or the attached depth control. Replumbed everything to cylinder #1 first, but by-passed the depth control this time. Machine failed to function properly so now I knew it was in cylinder #1. I had bought 4 used ones in case I couldn't sort these out (another $400 shot to figure crap out I shouldn't have had too) so I opened up both cylinder #1"s, and sure enough, my good one had the piston on upside down. Muther##$%$. That's the 2nd time LIttle Morden has messed up a set of Morris cylinders on me so I don't think there's going to be a strike 3. Took 20L of trans hydraulic to bring the tractor back up to full. 4 days of trying to bleed something that didn't need to be bled because they said the problem was at my end. Put the cylinder back together the right way and everything was working right after about 4 cycles to get the air out. I think a phone call is in order.... we will have a discussion about this. Put the 15" wheels back on the wings and set out to the field to reset the depth control. I have a love/hate relationship with Morris because damn, this thing works nice when it's working. Think I've only broke on shank on the rocks in 4 yrs... but for now I think I still hate them just a little....
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Yea.... I need a beer... those pistons don't have any little holes or vertical slots or anything in them, it's just a difference in distance from the top to the bottom that the ring is positioned and a slight undercut for the top 1/4". For the outside ones, the sealing ring should be positioned closer to the bottom.
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Yep.... that's pretty much the whole problem in a nutshell, and as MF has posted, the mechanic was warned... if he read the directions. This is the wing cylinder piston assembled correctly with no sealing ring installed.
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Note that the top of the piston is slightly undersized to allow the oil to flow around it and into the port. It could easily be mistaken for wear...
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Note that the top of the piston is slightly undersized to allow the oil to flow around it and into the port. It could easily be mistaken for wear...
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My numbers are the same as the later red ones,
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despite the yellow paint, but don't have a seal on the center of the piston .... as noted with the asterisk. I should really stamp or engrave those numbers before they disappear entirely. I had to remove some aluminum from the center of the piston to get it on the rod... it had "pancaked" slightly from being torqued in the past, so I used some sealant on the threads to be sure.
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As a side note, I have replaced the wing cylinders with ones from Princess Auto ( since there is only 2 of them they aren't plumbed in series like the wheels) and they are working out very nicely. Just had to heat up the base mounts and spread them out to fit the wider cylinder mounts and locate a couple longer pins. Not sure if they'll outlast the Morris equipment, but I can pretty much buy them on sale for the price of an installed seal kit.
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A couple of notes for anyone reading this to work on a Morris cylinder for the first time... do not use a pipe wrench on that top cap. The crushing action of the wrench will make it impossibly tight. If you are changing the seals anyway, heat it up and tap it with a punch or chisel. For a really stubborn one I've cut a shallow slot near the top and used an air chisel, but that's probably not a recommended practice. Once I get them loose, I use the bicycle chain style vice grip attached near the top to spin them around. That thread sealer I posted is the cat's meow for hydraulics, air lines in the shop or floor heating systems, but should NOT be used with any domestic water systems.
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We used to take deep tiller shanks into the local garage to get them re-arched on the 50 ton press.... after a couple flew across the shop they quit accepting the jobs. I decided my press wasn't any safer...
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I got 240 acres out of the first set of 2" spikes (they had already been flipped from the first side)... no real rain in the forecast so I doubt the next set will last any longer. I've tried using those old Morris cylinders in other applications and they wouldn't hold a load because of the bypass. Now I'm wondering... would it had worked if I had flipped the piston upside down? Or would running the seal by the port rip out seals too soon?
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