The only way to reduce fertilizer requirements is if you are losing 1/2 to the atmosphere. If so, $100000 will buy you a lot of agrotain or ESN. How are you applying fertilizer now? And what crops are you growing?

 

Well mainly topdressing winter wheat in the spring with 46-0-0 dry urea. The co-op comes out in the spring whenever they feel like it and sometimes it sits there quite a while before it rains. I don't have my own spreader and I've never heard of agrotain or ESN. What is it exactly and what does it cost compared to dry urea? I've heard of incorporating the fertilizer in the fall but I don't like all that black dirt over winter (It tends to fill the highway ditches with dirt from blowing)

 

We used to have mid row banders on our 5710 bourgault drill...not a big fan. They add a lot of extra weight (in a wet spring the drill dives into the mud, causing excessive ruts). Lots of extra maintenance. Don't like the idea of putting fertilizer where the roots are not but the weeds are...IMO
However, it would certainly be a better use of your dry urea than topdressing...should be able to cut back...not sure on how much though.

 

So long as your not injuring your seed, I think sidebanding is the way to go. We've been doing it with NH3 for five years now and would never consider mid-row banding. I understand the arguments for and against both and there are some reasons for mid-row banding besides agronomic ones....but.....
With mid-rows your putting your fertilizer as far as possible from your seed, with sidebanding your going as close as possible, what would you prefer?
As far as your winter wheat fertility and questions regarding agrotain/ESN here are some links that should educate you on both. http://www.agriumat.com/us/esn.html
http://www.agrotain.com/index.html
http://umanitoba.ca/afs/agronomists_conf....rtilization.pdf
http://www.umanitoba.ca/afs/agronomists_conf/proceedings/2007/Cynthia_Grant.pdf

Agrotain is a urease inhibitor, ESN is a polymer coated urea. Agrotain inhibits the activity of the urease enzyme in the soil, which is what breaks the urea molecule down and allows it to eventually become plant availiable N and/or denitrify, immobilize, leach or in your case volatilize into the atmosphere in the absence of rain. ESN is not a good option for spring top-dressing as it will require multiple rain events to wash it all into the soil, your winter wheat would probably end up being starved of N regardless of how high of a rate you might use.
ESN is a good option for fall applications on winter wheat, you would apply it when seeding.
Agrotain is quite a bit cheaper then ESN I think and is good insurance for topdressing urea when your unsure of rainfall. ESN varies in price I think from $100-150/tonne. They both have their place.
Hope this helps

 

I think Agrotain is 6 to 10 cents a lb on top of urea (it is a liquid that is mixed in with the urea before you buy it). They also have what is called Super U that is agrotain and another inhibitor. The rep was saying you could topdress in the fall with it and still have it be there for the plant in the spring. Pretty interesting.

Here's another option. Set your 1990 up so that you can band fertilizer on 15 inch rows (if its a 7.5" machine) and go in crop in the spring. The openers don't disturb much and you get all the urea in the ground where it matters. Some guys are doing this with the exactix NH3 system with your type of openers or SDXs from Case.

exactrix.com

They have a couple of pages about sidedressing winter wheat in the spring without much damage at all to the crop. Exactrix also has a injection wing if you are looking to go to NH3. And, it will cost you about the $100000 to do an exactrix system on your drill! But check with anh3.com for a similar system. You would still need to go with exactrix wings or get some of your own made.

The problem with an 1895 is that you have to pull 1/2 as many discs as before, and have to change/maintain them as well. If you can get it so you can put your fertilizer either with the seed or broadcast it without losing it or sidebanding with the drill you have, you probably would be better off.

Also, if you are thinking of ESN, you can always put it with the seed in the fall and it will be available in the spring. That also allows you to take advantage of the usually lower N prices in the fall without having to store it over winter.

 

Maxquip has an alternative to both of the systems Andy mentioned and at a fraction of the cost. aNH3 is about 25k exactrix 60-100k depending on options, Maxquip is probably in the 15k range

 

Last year we switched from flexi coil on 9" with atom jet side band to 5710 on 12" with mid row and would never go back. Its not really fair to compare one year to the next but with the coils seed damage was an issue and last year had the best overall crop ever.

 

My mid rows cost me big time this year. With wet soil conditions, i do not think they are too good. I am mid rowing nh3 on 12 inch spacing, and in wet dirt, I feel like the n strands and sticks in a tiny, narrow band which strands it from the slow moving crop roots. My canola grew out of it eventually( it did get 40 lb/a "rescue treatment" broadcast on), but my wheat and oats with high n rates suffered all year, and never got that nice healthy green. Where I farm being wet is a yearly reality, so this system is not for me. I have seen this stranding with 120 lbs of actual N in the old 12 " chisel plow fall banding days due to application in wet conditions. I am looking at the atom jet side banders for this spring. I have never really seeded in dry conditions in 18 years, and therefore i don't think it will probably happen any time soon.
All i know, is when I put down 50 dollars an acre worth of nitrogen, not including the other macros it takes for balance according to soil tests, My crops better da** well be healthy and green. I'd rather not spend my money on yellow crops and on worse weed issues.

This is a "here" thing, I have yet to talk to a non-local farmer who has a clue what I am talking about in terms of N stranding. Frustrating to say the least...

 

earthworm did you put any starter fert with the seed? I know down here (swift current) we have to do that or it just doesn't work either with mrb's

 

Been running a 5710 with MRB's for last 2 crops and that investment is paid for already. Sideband guys switching to MRB's all around us. It really is the only way you can do NH3 safely, and if you want to save money on fert, NH3 is your best bet. We tried Agrotain before the MRB's and you don't save money, you just make it a LITTLE safer to do it all one pass. JMHO.

 

lentil grower, I put a blend of 8-30-10 with the seed. Maybe I need more n to start with, but I'm already hot for canola on wide spacing/narrow openers. Cereal maybe need more, I thought of that, but I'm not set up well (Tank size) to put much in terms of total lbs with the seed.

 

Lots of interesting opionions. I like Andy's idea about locking up the front gang so I wouldn't wear so much stuff out when I fertilize. Is it imperative to get it right down in between the row or would it matter if I ran over the row a little while fertilizing with the drill? I plant with automatic steering so it would be possible to go right down in between the row but I would have to buy some kind of signal like RTK or something I suppose.

Agrotain sounds kind of expensive $120-$200 a ton more? Guys around here have been double shooting for a while but they tend to put too much on and burn the seed pretty bad. I've heard of 100% loss of crop due to double shooting. Maybe I'm mixed between side shooting and double shooting. Aren't they the same thing?

 

Here's a page off the exactrix site. You could either try to run between the rows, or go at an angle to the direction of seeding. Also, Deere (and others) offer a narrower gauge wheel for the 90 series opener that is only 2.5 or 3 inches wide, allowing for less crop being run over. The thing about sidedressing winter wheat in the spring is that the root system is more developed and hardy, which means that even when some N is right near the roots it won't damage the crop.

http://www.exactrix.com/SdSw.htm

I am not sure if side shooting and double shooting are the same. Double shooting to us is having an opener (usually a hoe opener) that puts down a band of fertilizer and a band of seed with some separation. You can double shoot on a single placement opener, but they just means that you have 2 hoses running to one opener placing all the product in the same row. On a CCS or planter this would equate to putting liquid starter in the row -there are 2 separate products and delivery systems, but they all go to the same place.

 

jradway -quick question, what spacing is your drill on? If its on 7.5 inch, you can do a little bit of opener moving to allow you to have about an average of 11 inch seed spacing and make 1/3 of your openers into banders.

Here's what you do. Your standard setup is (S being seed and F being fertilizer). top line is front rank, bottom is rear.

S S S S S S S S

-S S S S S S S

Now, with MRBs

S S F S S F S S

-F S S F S S F

You have to mess around with where the openers are on a rockshaft to get the opener spacing a little closer (just using the openers where they are at result in a 7.5 - 15 - 7.5 - 15 inch spacing, but between switching some side to side and some adjustment you could get them closer to 10 and 12 probably. With a CCS you would have to buy a cart for fertilizer and plumb the drill with towers. However, smaller carts are cheap and it would be simple to do. Also, you would still keep the CCS metering, and for soybeans (or any legume) you wouldn't need to drag the cart around at all.

 

Andy that's a really good idea. I've seen the bourgualt mid row banders that you bolt on the front but it never dawned on me that you could just move around and add a few openers. I have a 10 inch spacing drill so I have a lot of space on my drill rockshaft. I even have a hitch to pull my pickup so I could pull an air cart when I wanted to fertilize. My drill is at the dealer right now so I can't measure it but I bet its even easier on a 10 inch than on a 7.5 inch. On the front and back gangs theres probably a good 16 inches between openers

What kind of cart do you think I should buy. My uncle made one but I don't know if I'm that handy or maybe a could just buy a used one cheaper anyway.

Could I set that up and pull anhydrous tanks instead of dry? I've never been around NH3 before and it sounds kind of dangerous and I little bit finicky but hey it's a lot cheaper too.

 

I'm not a wheat farmer, and if I were here in Illinois it would be very small. All I have to say is this. If you are talking about a $100,000 cost. Then why not buy your own used spreader? I've seen Case-IH SPX3200.3185/3150 with spreader boxes. There is also JD 4930 units with spreader boxes. It is just a thought when you're talking about that amount of money. I would pencil out the cost/usage of the two different systems.

 

A 2320 flexicoil cart (or if you are interested in color matching, a Deere 787 is the same) can be had for well under $20000 and will hold 230 bu of product in 2 tanks.

NH3 is always an option. Pull the dealer's tanks around rather than buying an aircart would work well too. Never used the stuff but we are considering it in the coming year.

Deere has a new pull type spreader as well, and there are numerous other boxes available used at fertilizer companies.

 

I know the pull type spreaders are good most of the time but it seems like my neighbor has a lot of trouble with wind blowing the fertilizer to the side. If I had the money the air booms work really well and they can go really FAST! and then they tear out the wheat when they go around the corner 45 mph!

Andy, if you go to NH3 how will you incorporate it? I've been looking at the Bourgualt 25 series banders. I don't know if the John Deere openers would work on NH3 or not.

 

Deere has kits for 90 series openers to run NH3 on them (they have the option of either on an 1895). So its just a difference with the scraper I think. You can order an 1895 set up for NH3

 

We've been sidebanding NH3 with seed hawk for five years now and have not had any serious issues with seedling injury and this is going as high as 150#s of actual N in canola. I've seen injury with conservapaks and heard of it with flexi-coil stealth openers, especially worn ones, but to date our seed-hawk has been great. John Harapiak did some work on one-pass NH3 when he was with Westco and in talking to him he also felt that the seed hawk was a great option for sidebanding NH3, the conservapak he felt could pose some problems, or at least the older designs because of their aggressive N placement

 

I like how you used the words "serious issues". Why create any unnecessary issues? There are plenty of things we can't control when growing a crop so we should at least take complete control of what we can. All I suggest for anyone is that unless you do a side-by-side comparison you don't know what your are missing.

 

We used midrow banders with nh3 for 5 or 6 years. It worked great. We were setup on 12 inch seed rows and 24 inch midrows. Our crops never suffered from lack of fertilizer and we never had weed problems either because you don't pack on your midrow. Now we have a 10 inch seedmaster. It also works good with no fertilizer burn from the nh3. I wouldn't go with a straight side band or paired row if you are using nh3, once you go over 4 miles per hour you cannot mantain enough separation and you are also throwing more dirt.

 

Lots of people are sidebanding very high rates of nh3 with no problems including me. Dutch industies 4.5" spread with N down the middle, and deeper. Works great here but we are pretty much never dry in spring so seed burn is not as serious a concern as it could be in other areas. Both ways work well but I think this is the way to go. No trash clearance issues and very cheap compared to midrows. Unless you are in a dry area or lighter soils I would try these openers first and save a ton of money. Also who ever told you that you would be able to cut your fertilizer in half is lying. A pound of N in the soil is a pound of N no matter how it got there or where it is placed.

 

Here is some actual side by side comparison with Mid Row, Paired Row and Single row with fertilizer broadcasted and with the seed. Bourgault of coarse does not like to show this data. They pulled out their seeding unit after they saw these results. Look at page 12:

http://www.sarc.montana.edu/documents/mwbc/2007/07NARC-MWB3_AirDrillOpnrs.pdf

There was 2.9 Bushels/Acre difference between Bourgault Tillage Tools Paired Row Opener to their Mid Row Banders.

Also BTT's Paired Row is definitely not a great opener compared to other paired row openers. In 2008 it was 2.8 Bushels/Acre less than the Dutch Precision Paired Row

The science proves that Bourgault is just very good at selling Mid Rows. Also everyone always compares Mid Row and Side Banding. What about Paired Row? It is different.

 

Well I think they meant that injecting right into the soil is better than sprinkling it on top of the ground. I am in Western SD and it gets pretty dry down here and some pretty light soils too. I am worried about NH3 burn in sideshooting now that you mention it.

I have looked a little at the exactrix website. they have an attachment that bolts right onto the deere 90 series opener. It looks simple enough but it does seem awfully close to the seed. Also do those little fertilizer boots wear out the same time as the seed boots? I don't like the fact that I have to drill 2 25/64 holes in the side of the boot either. They are hard as a rock. I would like to hear from someone who has used them though, they look cheap.