I went to a meeting a couple weeks ago and the research is showing not to put your pks in the n band. Especially the p as the roots can not access it early enough to avoid yield loss. Putting some with the seed did get back most of the yield but not quite all. Basically you want to put as much p with the seed as you safely can.

 

I went from putting all down as you are to putting DAP + potash with the seed.

 

We put our phosphate and sulphur down our seed tube and Nh3 on the fertilizer knife on our seedmaster.

 

Duchek! We swore like coal miners all spring....we puke r phos thru same shank as nh3.... This year worst ever with nh3 vapor plugging up phos tubes...how much phos u seed placing with ur cereals like wheats? What is ur row spacing? Thx in advance oh this Seedmaster has regular nh3 old fashion system...our other Seedmaster is newer with Maxquip high press nh3 with little plugging of phos/sulf

 

We put s-15 down the tube with canola and p/k blend down the tube with the wheat on seedhawk.

 

The advantage of the seedhawk is that the fertilizer is only and inch and a half away from the seed so that the seedling can get to the nutrients very fast. Putting all the fertilizer 5-6" away in midrow bands is TOO FAR away, i agree. We have our urea, starter, and sulfur blended before delivery and put all down threw the fert shank.

 

Putting all the fertilizer 5-6" away in midrow bands is TOO FAR away, i agree.

Duck! The Bourgault Police are coming to get you!!

Andrew

 

We were sidebanding our dry blend and NH3 and using seed primer and jumpstart with the seed. In wheat/oats/barley it works great, in canola not so good. This year we're installing an Alpine kit so we can put a liquid starter with the seed.

 

Going into our 9th year with alpine, works very well, seed safe and a very efficient way to give the plant available phos. Alot of nay sayers out there - mainly fert dealers.
Soil phos levels have never changed in 9 years and plant tissue tests confirm we always have adequit p in the crops.

 

Run Alpine with the seed, any additional phos a long with all sulpher and Nitrogen goes down the fert tube.

 

I know each run a different metering system but can anyone tell me what the difference is between the Seedmaster vs Seedhawk openers? Are they the same openers just marketed with different metering systems or what?

 

Seed hawk knives are narrower than masters and the depth adjust is different. They both work the same with the biggest difference being the width!

It seems alpine is gaining popularity but I can't see how such a small amount of product can work

I run a full fert blend down the fert knife it seems to work and makes hauling fertilizer easy. I like running low fan speeds in canola too.

 

All fert goes down as liquid down the fert knife & seed goes down its knife-everything is kept separate with our Seedmaster.

 

I run a seedmaster on sixteen inch spacing we put all our liquid blend through fertilizer knife. I have considered putting some phos in seed row , but I have been quite pleased with results as is .

 

My findings and results on 7 years of experience with this system are as follows. Done lots of research this winter on this topic as well. I've been told a seedling only lives off its own nutrients within the seed and the direct nutrients around the seed until the 2-3 leaf stage . A plant is growing a root structure but not really mining for nutrients through its roots until the 2-3 leaf stage. So that's why phos very close to a seed is very important for good pop-up and good root growth. Since phos is not mobile in the soil, is 1.5 inches away from the seed to far?
I have done both Phos with and phos away from seed, phos with is better from my findings. But i'm starting to find that only 25-30 lbs with the seed may not be enough, because of salt effect i'm causious of adding to much more with the seed. In the past couple of years I think that i'm possibly starting to see a less vigorous start. I guess i'm wondering if i'm not putting back enough phos to replenish the levels that the yeild's have been removing. Do I need to add More to keep future yeild's growing, i think so but that now becomes a delivery problem and how many products do we want to handle at seeding?
I use liquid Nit, liquid sulfur in fert knife. Dry phos, dry potash with seed in seed row. I run this way for several reasons, cost of dry potash, and sectional liquid control of nitrogen beinging two of the biggest reason's. I think i need to now add liquid Phos to the fert band to increase the Phos number's as this will be the easiest way to get more phos down. Hoping others contribute more thoughts on this thread. I think there is much more to be added on this topic.

 

I agree phos needs to be with the seed, but the max amount that can be safely placed with the seed is ??
To much causes competition for moisture and salt poisoning of root tips leading to unhealthy seedlings.
I also agree with Alpine being very beneficial to young seedlings. I would be scared to use only a small amount of Alpine only and no additional phos. I think that this will eventually end up being a soil deficient of phos, a problem not easily fixed. Last year we switched up our farm planting equipment to seed hawk, mainly because the crop that all of my seed hawk neighbors grew came up the best hands down. No other drill that I have witnessed can compare emergence like that of a Seed Hawk or a Seedmaster.
We set up our Seedhawks to use Alpine and we used 4 gal. Alpine with everything, wheat, barley, canola, faba beans, everything. We also put down 20-30lbs phos with the seed. All the rest goes into the fertilizer tube including NH3.
As far as mid row banding I think it works great for late season nitrogen which is good if your looking for high protein wheat but as far as yield goes I think yield suffers from too great a distance from the seed row. I guess I will find out first hand this year since we bought another drill for this year and this one has midrow banders.

 

dirtfarmer do you use potash? if so where are you placing the potash

 

potash

Yes. Last year we put all the potash goes down the fertilizer tube. Recent research has shown a substantial boost in fertilizer utilization when potash is placed with NH3. Seemed to work well last year. I'm not sure whether that's the best placement or not.

 

So guys what do you think is a safe amount of phos to put down the seed tube on a 12 inch row?

 

There is a lot of research and charts on this. It depends on your soil type and opener width as well as row spacing. Potash with the seed is risky. It has a very high salt content unless you are using potassium sulfate.

I have to ask why use alpine and dry phosphate as opposed to just one or the other.

 

Dry farmer if that question is to me, it will not be alpine. We will be using 10-34 and the reason is because i set my drill up single shoot and don't want to add too much dry phos with the seed. I use liquid nit and sulfur and i'm thinking to add more phos along with that in the fert band. We like liquid because its easy sectional control, Easy mixing our own rates as required on farm and never have any fert plugging or delivery issues. Plus it's very easy to variable rate our rates on the go.

I'm on 10 inch spacing so i know that 25 lbs of phos and 20 lbs of potash in seed row is safe enough in our soil and moisture conditions in our area.

But 45 lbs of phos will be to much in seed row, so i think ill cut back to 20 lbs of dry phos in seed row and add 25 lbs of liquid phos in fert row. As i've said in other post's, I believe that i'm starting to lack in phos. I can't keep these higher yeilds maitained unless i put the numbers back i'm removing from our dirt. In the first few years (7) with the seed-hawk we where at peek yeilds and I feel we need to add more phos to maintain our yeilds in future.

 

We run liquid n+s and then we put roughly 25lbs phos with the seed and then we apply the additional phos with the potash down the fertilizer tube. Seems to work well. We are trying a new product this year which is similiar to S15. Its like a 12-40-0-12. something like that but its a blended product capsule similar to the S15. We will put a portion of that with the seed and then blend the rest with our potash to put down the fert tube. All products are variable rated also.

 

alpine is pricey but it works

mbfarmer I think that question is for me. I use both dry phos and Alpine. I would prefer to use only Alpine as my phos source, but cannot justify putting down that much Alpine. Its just too expensive. I use it because of the cold wet soils we plant into. Lately our area has had the latest start in Western Canada. To make up for lost time I use 20 litres/acre of Alpine to give the seeds a head start and they pop out of the ground twice as fast as without. I use it as a starter fertilizer and so far I'm very impressed, fast emergence and even. That's why I use both at planting.

 

dirtfarmer2 How long have you been using both dry 11-51 and Alpine ? We are contemplating trying some Alpine as a starter with our pks blend in the seed row 50lbs of 11-51 and 2-3 gal per acre of liquid . My question is how did you decide on the rate of liquid P to get the results that you are seeding , and will adding Alpine in the seed row affect the benefits of a pea inoculant ? Are you using a banding tube on your opener for your Alpine or inserting the liquid tube into the air tube above the opener as some guys here are doing ?

 

TMK, I have only used Alpine for one year. Decided to give it a try after seeing results in neighboring fields. Applying 3 1/2 gallons an acre seems to be the minimum amount to have any benefit at all is what seasoned users have told me. Thats where I started last year. I'm applying at least 4 gallons this year on every thing I plant. Sat down with an agrologist and crunched the numbers after all the soil tests were done and we decided to cut back our phos by 10 lbs. per acre. Some Agrologists say that Alpine is just very expensive phos. Especially if they work for a fertilizer sales company. Some are more open minded and are willing to see the difference in the crop as it progresses. I'm still in the experimental stage on the right amount to apply will do more tests this year. Will try some at 3 and some higher than 4 to see what the difference is. All that I know after one year is that where a run was plugged that row came up much later and was weaker all year long. Plant with a seed hawk and they have a seed tube set up for a small liquid hose and put the hose right to the bottom. Have a lot of neighbors adding Alpine kits on their drills for this spring.

 

Thanks dirtfarmer2 I sent you a personal message the other day . I'll be seeing our Alpine rep at our local trade show this weekend . It seems most guys I have spoke with are sticking with the Alpine program . So are you applying 15 lbs /ac of actual dry phos in your seed row with the 4 gal/ac liquid then ?

 

For those of you using Alpine, this product is a great way to introduce highly plant-available P right with the seed. However, do the math on how much actual P is going into your soil. If you do not add a source of P along with your Alpine you will draw down your labile pool in your soil. Once this pool becomes too small, no matter how much P you add you will suffer a yield loss until you restore this pool. Always make sure you match P additions to plant withdrawals.

 

We are on a 10 inch row spacing and just using a raven cooler for our NH3. Our seedmaster is equipped with Dutch boots. We go anywhere from 55-65 pounds of
11-52 in both our wheat and canola.