Perhaps it would be worth a call to CAT to see if they have had any problems

 

I was of the understanding that the thrust washers that were updated to thrust bearings were in the differential carriers in the axels, not in the transmissions.

http://www.thecombineforum.com/forums/18-tractors/11572-challenger-mt-9-b-series-2.html
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I was of the understanding that the thrust washers that were updated to thrust bearings were in the differential carriers in the axels, not in the transmissions.

http://www.thecombineforum.com/forums/18-tractors/11572-challenger-mt-9-b-series-2.html
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You could be correct. My info is pretty vague, but my dealer says the transmission was "rebuilt at 1800 hrs" as part of some program I believe. So what would have been done in the tranny? As far as they are in the teardown yesterday they are thinking it was thrust washers that seized that started a chain reaction of destruction.

 

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When our 865 was nearly new it had some sort of update like you are talking. The only difference we ever noticed was something was off cause the rear window would open about an inch then hit a fitting on the fuel tank. We ran that tractor to 3400 hours in 10 years, no tranny issues, then traded it for an 865C, speaking of which we are interested in selling, just turned 100 hours on it yesterday.

 

then traded it for an 865C, speaking of which we are interested in selling, just turned 100 hours on it yesterday.

Why would you trade with such low hours? having issues with it?

 

This is very disappointing that the component that I trusted the most of the whole tractor has had a catastrophic $$$$$$ failure.

This has a name now TA.
Your transmission did a "Prentice"!

 

I have had trouble getting warranty out of Agco when the unit is still actively "on" warranty. I wouldn't hold my breath as to Agco coming to the table. Especially if your dealer is in east central AB as mine is!!

 

There is a high probability that somebody stuffed up, during the rebuild and shortened the life of the transmission.
Mother Agco will likely wean you off her teat at this point.

 

I've heard of three 875b tractors in my area that have had to he same catastrophic trans failor you are talking. All three have also gone out during high speed roading.

After I heard of these I have slowed mine down on the road. I'm not sure if it's the high speed or just a quinsidence. My 875c was just in for transmissions updates. They had the whole tractor torn apart.

 

Thanks for all the replies and sympathy!! I sold the tractor last winter though so just feel really bad for the nice young man that bought it. I do not think there was anything wrong when I sold it, and that it could have been due to the high speed roading for a long distance. I never drove it more than 12 - 15 mph pulling the drill.


What are these "transmission updates"? Anything related to thrust washers in planetaries?

 

interesting? got about 2500 hrs on and 865b bought as a demo unit, so far ours has never been touched, might need to look into this. I have never heard of one failing yet, not a lot of them out here but enough of them. I always thought the tranny was the only thing Cat could get right, I could tell ya lots of stories about junk engines, smaller ones especially, the c18 seems pretty tough as I have expected the way some guys drive there tractors around here there would be some blown up by now but just one so far, but it took a drink of water.

 

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Can you clarify? Do you mean engine RPM? As in run the engine at higher RPM to maintain higher lube pressures? Thanks

I have been told 1800rpm minimum to maintain higher transmission lube pressure. The same mechanic also told me that's what he tells the versatile owners with cat power shifts

 

Did the older ones ( like an 85C) have transmission issues as well?

 

No the 75, 85, 95 series had pretty good transmissions. The problem with the older tractors is hyd flow is insufficient for todays requirements. Also wet muddy conditions you can get track slip easier due to design...

 

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This sounds like versatile cat powershifts are affected as well. Does this affect all cat powershifts in versatile or just some from the last few years. I'm just curious since it looks like from what happened here you buy a good used one run it for a few hours and the transmission blows.

 

Back in 2010/2011 AGCO had a campaign running to change software for clutch pack fill times (overlap). The new software was supposed to fix clutch H from burning. I think the bad shift was 4 to 5 if I can remember.... Since then transmission failures have slowed but not stopped. I am unsure if Versatile has the same issue as I have never been into one. But If the same transmission arrangement is used I would think they are seeing the same.

 

So the best things to do are keep the rpm up over 1800, and don't run it to fast down the road? Are there any other updates to ask dealer about?

 

You can ask your dealer if your Tractor has been in for the updates. It depends on model and serial number break. Most of them got completed in Sask area... As for new tractors I am unsure as I no longer work with challenger tractors.

I am still on the fence regarding high speed roading... I think as long as your RPM stay above 1800 you will have sufficient lube pressure. I do not think Roading alone is the root cause of the failures...

 

Are these the same tranny that goes in a challenger 855. Is there any years that didn't have this issue

 

I think between the 8xx and 9xx the difference is just in the back end of the case and how the power flows out into the differential on the 8xx and into the articulating hinge in the 9xx. There are at least 2 major update levels in a 2008 model and as recent as 2015 they are doing version 2 of that update. Still low oil flow problems to planetaries at high speed roading. Part of the fix is drilling oil passages bigger to get more flow and cooling.

Does anyone know if these updates have been designed in from the factory at some age or model of these TA22 transmissions.

In a post by Christian Herenboek ? in early 2016 he states that Versatile had a delay in the release of their 4WD line because of transmission problems (Cat TA22) so this problem still may exist.

 

I have heard that the 865A do not have the transmission problems the Bs and Cs have had. Is that true? And why would that be?

 

The transmission went out of my 2008 965B at 400 hours. I bought it with 200 demo hours on it, so it was still under warranty. I could never get a straight answer on why it failed. I suspected a misajusted switch on the clutch pedal wasn't letting the clutch packs fully engage. The dealer had tried twice to set the clutch properly and I was never satisfied. Looks to me like AGCO cheapened the switch from the one Caterpillar used on the original 765's. I now have 2200 hours with no more issues.

 

This post is in response to a PM but was too long to fit the format and since it sort of applies to the original thread I am posting it here. Thank you for following up on my post. It is interesting what the feedback is coming from dealers which without doubt is an "official" position from the manufacturer. First of all I want to clarify that when I speak of planetary failure, I am talking about planetary gears in the transmission that are part of the wet clutch packs that create the ratio combinations for the 16 forward speeds. I understand that Agco lubricates their differentials and final drive planetaries from transmission oil, and then scavenges that oil and filters it before returning it to the transmission. I like what Versatile is doing in keeping their gear boxes separate. Isolation of a failure to one component is always a good thing that I questioned when I was learning the Agco/Challenger system. However failures in the Agco system seem to be speed related- fast road speed for long steady periods. Not unlike similar failures in Cat 966 loader axles used in late 70's Big Buds. They are strong and heavy built but designed for intermittent cyclical operations and would not take sustained continuous loading. My knowledge of the TA22 is that MOST of the failures occur at road speed. It seems to me that when certain planetary gear sets are run at high speed in the TA22, lack of lubrication or overheating, or a combination of both, becomes the catalyst that eventually ends in catastrophic failure, to an otherwise normal and good transmission. I did extensive checking into signs of problems in my transmission within 400 hours of the failure. Oil analysis, filter cutting and analysis, consulting with Agco on our findings. All checked out very good with very little in the way of debris or cuttings found. After another season of running(200 hrs) I cut that filter again and found absolutely nothing in the filter. I believe at that point there was nothing going on in the transmission. It was only 10-15 hours later, while driving down the hiway for 100 miles that it locked up. That to me is clear evidence that the problem was the prolonged speed and resulting heat and lack of lubrication. As to your comment about running the engine speed higher to ?? keep oil pressure higher. I always enjoyed the performance and power of the C18 at 1650- 1700 rpm. I think that engine was designed to run there and several of my friends that are lifetime Finning employees and very familiar with these engines are part of that belief. I do not lug engines and I do not like to run engines at the governor either but to find a smooth and sweet spot where everything runs nice. I think the TA22 was the answer to the kind of torque a C18 puts out at 4.5 mph, but not at 20+ mph. There have been a few more posts on my thread in the last 2 years, some of them being part of my opinion on the whole issue. I have spent a lot of time reading and keeping this problem in mind and what I see is lots of these tractors reaching 6-7,000 hours of scraper work. If that does not kill a transmission, farming certainly will not. But in the scraper application, long high speed runs are not usually common, although moving could cause that condition. Maybe this will always remain a mystery but I have my founded beliefs!

 

It's odd because with our 865's we road with loaded drills all the time at 100% power as long as far as 20 miles at a time. Which you would think would be a lot harder than 100 empty. No trouble yet knock on wood.

 

Joe do you "road" your Challenger to the Greenland operation??!! When do you start seeding there?:18:

 

I have been wondering how the E series machines have been working. Wondering if they changed transmission configuration when they went to SISU power? has anyone heard of any failures in the new units?

 

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My 865E got a bit jumpy after 600 hours. Tech did a calibration and it is fine again. I couldn't say if anything has been changed from previous units though. Is it normal to need a calibration after first season like that?

Did the tech do a clutch cal or a tranny cal? Transmission calibrations shouldn't have to be performed until clutch fill times are out of whack... Maybe got a bad cal at the factory? On the C series there was a procedure you could do from the seat for the clutch cal. Push in and let out the clutch slowly three times while in neutral if I remember correct. Resets the value of the position sensors on the clutch pedal, helps with clutch modulation...

 

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He did a transmission calibration.

Good to know about that other procedure, that would work on a 965C too?

Don't quote me.... It been a while but yes I think that will work on a C series.

 

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I am reviving this old thread on Cat TA-22 ps transmissions to maybe clear up some questions as to what oil to use in them which seems to vary greatly, even from Agco. If what I am finding regarding Agco’s 821XL oil for the TA-22 is true, it could be at the root of an alarming number of failures. I realize this is a very complex topic with every oil supplier and retailer quick to recommend their oil as a superior product. But there are few oils that meet the Cat specs for the TA-22 transmission. Cat stopped selling and recommending their old TO-2 spec oil in 1990. It was just a glorified straight grade motor oil of the day for hydraulic systems. That is the spec of most hytran type oils even today, including Agco 821XL as per Nebraska test which lists this as the right oil. Does anyone else have suggestions of what Agco calls for in this transmission? To make matters worse, many oil supplyers have followed the trend to multigrade oils which is absolutely against the Cat TDTO and newer TO-4 specs. Although Cat does have a TDTO-TMS multigrade for extreme temp range. But looking further into what Versatile uses as a factory fill on their TA-22s in the big tractor line, it is Shell DonaxTD which is a straight grade replacement for Cats TO-4. Maybe that is why Versatile is not having transmission problems? Cat TO-4 (TDTO) oil is said to have additives that significantly reduce gear wear compared to TO-2 spec oils. It could be the .127% zinc in TO-4 oils. I have only found a few oils that meet the Cat TDTO 10W and TO-4 specs. As mentioned the Versatile factory fill Shell Donax TD, Shell Spirax S3, Hytran Ultra, Q8 TO-4 fluid 10W, Allison C-4 and C-3, and a major transmission rebuilder that recommends Mobil HD30 and no multigrades ( I can’t find that one in the TO-4 list). In the Cat world multigrade oils are not used except in extreme cold situations because multigrades do not have the molecular shear strength of straight grade oils. This is very important in a high load transmission environment. Check out Caterpillar Service Publication SEBU 6250 (Cat machine fluid recommendations). P 17-18. I will try to post that segment after I post this.