Why not put lot of phos out the year ahead. I’m not sold on this whole tied up with calcium.

 

The best solution as I see it would to be able to double shoot when seeding, plan B if you own your own Nh3 cultivator would be to put a air system on and shoot the P and S with the Nh3. Floating on the S is fine but broadcasting P seems inefficient as P does not travel much in the soil.

 

I'm definitely skeptical of any claims about special phosphate formulations being "more available" in whatever form. That's what the Alpine guys say too. Show me the double blind studies and maybe I'll start to believe it. The only thing my phosphate trials have ever showed is that more phosphate is better, even when applied in the spring ahead of the crop, in any form. We apply it with the double shoot in the drill. We've been using either MESZ or 40-Rock phosphate with our canola fields in the last ten years and we feel like it is a good thing compared to regular 11-52 but can't say there's a yield bump. MES15 is also popular around here. We find the best way to bump our yields is to top dress extra N and S between cabbaging and bolting, but we do that with the pivot so that probably won't apply to you. We also use a fair amount of ESN (about 1/3) which we do feel makes a difference.

 

How do you know it’s phosphate limiting yield? Have you tissue tested?
Canola doesn’t have much response to potash

 

If you are short on phophate the leaves turn Red... its good to see in autum here (winter canola)

 

What are your background levels?

 

Years ago used 5710 and would single shoot 35lbs/a act P as well as pretty healthy dose of other juice(mostly S, N, some K) - IE over 200lbs/a down with seed - and really thought only once maybe saw seed burn with 3" openers. Our ground is typically cool,wet so think bit like yours. Had some very good yields doing this(75ish likely the highest) and was putting down either Fall applied NH3 or urea in big quantities - 100-150lbs act N. The last few yrs have changed everything as prices were lower and looking at lowering costs/a to match - big applications of biosul for multi yr performance, planter canola with very low seeding rates, low application of phosphate(alpine at 15-20l/a)), no fall applied N, relatively low rates of UAN sprayed on even before cabbage - timing this with rain events almost as much as growth stage. While have not hit the big yield yet, have to say that the relative yield vs costs is pretty attractive. I do believe the application of lower rates of N when the plant is really at stage to grow quickly is the most enlightening part of this. Have had tissue tests done twice and have not seen anything too alarming - I have bumped up amounts of P going down with cereals the year before and/or after. I will target 60bpa next yr and think I can do it with significantly less juice than what was using 10 years ago. Even though varieties of canola have changed over that same amount of time not sure that is such a big factor. My preference would be liberty linked varieties, but this next yr actually will be a different roundup variety than have ever used before - it seems that it hard to get too used to a particular variety with was fast as they changing them and pretty sure this not a good thing. I have consistently used same varieties for other crops and find the performance to be fine.

 

To me in our soils it is all about background levels. Take the money from all the snake oils and put it into more 11-52. Band as much as you safely can with your cereals, or fall apps when necessary.
We have the same drill as you with 1” openers. Banding 50lb with cereals seems to be enough for us to increase background levels. We use 120lb of s15 in seed row canola. Only 40lb actual P in that but it is safe and has worked well for us.

 

DDF have you been placing 120lbs of s15 in furrow on 10" spacing without any burn?

 

Yes, for several years now.

 

Also have to decide and figure out what it costs to get that extra few bushels. Seems you hit a plateau and it costs a lot to get an extra few bushels that don’t make you any more net money.

 

Used to think high soil test P made a big difference but have seen land test 3PPM yield exactly the same as our long term land testing 35. What you apply in the crop season can really make the difference.

 

Well every soil test ever done here Phosphate on the bar graph is terribly low. It's just our soil. I have been putting 125 N total with canola and 100 N on everything else for yrs. Last several yrs been putting 40 and even 50 actual phos with the seed on cereals. I have 2" openers now and have been at 30-35 phos on canola pushing levels in moist yrs. Soil tests always want more phos than I can apply with a 50 bu yield. I have put 25 of sulfur always with canola and know my sulfur levels aren't the limiting yield factor. With canola you need more than just lots of N. Potash is always just at the sufficient line but some with the seed always helps. You need a balance of everything and ensure your micro nutrients are there as well. I think floating Phos is marginally better than soil applying in a row. Read somewhere that Phos in a row can only get tied up so much with the surrounding soil only having so much calcium close to the fert. In a floated scenario it is exposed to everything and that is where Avail if it works would be beneficial. My field after juice application has 2 1/2' trenchs and if it got floated and I harrowed it the fert would mostly be below my canola when seeded. Option 2 is to turn my parked 40' morris drill into a fall juice applicator and fert applicator doing both 1 shot in fall. 7 1/2" spacing works the ground more than desired most yrs but would work. My Morris tank has a NH3 hitch behind. My other option is to put seed boots on my mid row banders and put my Morris cart behind my 5710 applying phos on midrows. My 5710 has a leading cart right now and my NH3 hitch could be rigged to pull the morris cart. My tractor has the ability to run 2 fans. Or of course just buy a bigger leading cart with double shoot using midrows. More payments lol!!

 

How long before the phos desolves in soil?
We put 40 lbs actual last fall for canola this yr.on our test field..
Then 25 lbs with seed this spring....
Zero yield difference..
Trying micros with the phos next spring..

 

Not that long. Left side forgot to turn the starter on “test strip”. Right side 60lbs Phos. You probably have a lot of Phos in the bank and won’t see a dramatic difference like that. Just stop putting Phos down and see what happens!

 

Just cause your soil tests low doesn’t mean that’s the limiting factor. You need to tissue test and see what the levels are in the canola. It’s a a very good possibility that it’s low on phos. But you could need more sulphur to go along with your high rates of N. We have some fields that test high in phos but it’s tied up and not useable by the plants.

 

I've maybe missed it, but how are you getting your S on? To me that is always the hardest thing to accomplish when using fall NH3.
Personally, I'd be comfortable with 50lb of 11-52 in seed row. It is the S and N that I don't like next to seed.
Of your 3 options described above, I'd go with the Morris drill, applying all fert one pass if you have time for that.
Once you master getting all you goodies on in the fall... you will be looking for a canola planter.

 

When we switched from broadcasting and incorporating the fertilizer blend ahead of the drill to putting it in the double shoot we noticed a huge difference in the early stages, much like the picture @joesixpack posted above. Clearly it looks to us like the plants get an early advantage with the fertilizer close by, N mostly, but also the P. Despite that, I'm not sure the yield in the fall was all that different between the half that was broadcast and the half that was from the drill double shoot application.

 

I personally like to band my P and S in the fall. I drill it in on 7 1/2 inch spacing. Phos being virtually immobile in the soil is only available when placed with the seed for a very short time. Yes I do seed place pho’s in spring at 25 lbs of actual but once that top inch dries out it’s sat in a useless position. Three inches down the banded phos and sulphur are in the root zone and moisture ready to be used. Last time I checked roots went down.

 

Lol nice comment ^^ kinda stole my thunder but we go 25 lbs in the seed row, 35 lbs mid row band 4” deep. If we don’t float the sulfur we put the sulfur in the mid row as well.
That’s actual #’s Phos. Years and years ago we used to always band Phos with our urea in the fall before we switched to nh3. I think we’ve been stratifying the Phos to high up and putting it in with the mid rows is at least getting it quite a bit deeper than just canola seed depth and I think the sulfur/urea concentrated zone helps with tie up or at least in some research I’ve read was the case.
You don’t want all your Phos in that hot zone because early on the roots don’t want anything to do with it.

 

This year I had an interesting phenomenon on accident. I single shot some canola along with our starter fertilizer. I used Power Rich’s PowerPak 9-36-9-2 @ approximately 27lbs/acre. After that I went and seeded flax. Than I came back and seeded more canola. I didn’t realize that my fertilizer roller on my drill plugged up so I was only seeding canola with no starter. I went out and collected leaf samples where I had seeded canola with and without starter fertilizer. I did not have a tissue test run I did a test called a SAP test. SAP tests test the liquid in the leaf vs a tissue test which tests the whole leaf. It’s essentially a blood test for the plant. Interestingly enough my Phosphorus results came back almost identical, and they were all extremely low. With starter P levels were 84ppm & 90ppm. Without starter P level was 81ppm. Ideally we’re looking for approximately 300ppm. I than foliar applied a product called MKP(0-52-34) @ roughly 4lbs/acre around bolting. Foliar P is approximately 20x more efficient than soil applied. I did not have an opportunity to re SAP test after my application, but I will certainly be testing next year throughout the growing season. I will also ensure I have a couple thousand lbs of MKP on hand. I think this year I paid approximately $1/lb. As a side note all of my SAP calcium levels were deathly low and N levels were extremely high. I farm in North Dakota approximately 7 miles south of the Canadian border.

 

And when you see that why wouldn’t you think DAMN maybe I should just put 11-51 down and quit pissing around with the “get them rich” mix??? Nobody in their right mind should be shorting Phos in the ground with the intention of making it up foliar it’s impossible.

 

I tried some kugler plots(4 x 80 acres), to try and get me over my yeild hump. 55 seems to be my max, and 53 is my average. Anyways I saw 0 difference in any of the kugler plots. I did one that was their entire system, 80lbs of thier granular plus 2 x of thier foliar 1.5 gallons per acre and 1 x of their foliar health. The other plots where 1 and two passes of their foliar liquid. I saw 0 difference on any of it. Wasted some big moneny on those trials.

 

It’s never a waste. Costs money to learn lol. I checked out the results at the discover farm on their canola last year. Without snake oil was the best yield and best return

 

There were plenty of side by side trials in ND with 60-70lbs of 11-52 vs 30lbs of Powerich. There was not a single grower that said his Powerich under yielded his 11-52. By no means am I saying it over yielded in every trial either. I simply did it to cover more acres on a single drill fill as I do not have a large fertilizer capacity. I also do not believe that only applying 11-52 will solve our Phos issues and carry our crops Phos requirement for the entire growing season as lots of research has shown applied P to be plant availabe for a few weeks at best. I'm not trying to "short Phosphorus" I'm trying to find a balance of applying Phos in the hot zone to be effective for plant growth but also not over applying to tie up other nutrients. I also do not have the capability of mid row banding so as of now I see applying MKP to be my most effective form especially if the SAP test is calling for it. After seeing the results I will be applying 11-52 with my canola and may even do a side by side with Powerich and SAP test separately.

 

Waiting on my soil test and getting a floater for 580 acres. Debating taking my coulters off and running shanks instead on the midrow. I am sick of maintaining these coulters. Parts add up and I have access to shanks. Got to look at my drill closer and see whats all involved in making a swap Just need tips and boots that will apply granular and NH3 same row. Besides when the ground is as hard as it is this yr coulters would be giving me NH3 inhalation in the cab. Last yr was bad with vapor escaping occasionally. Never had a runny nose all summer I breathed in so much. The cure for Covid!!

 

Tyler. You proved an important point with the results. Seed placed P is only good for a short time and more should be banded deeper fir season long supply. We should be learning from the corn growers and their results of banding fert below the seed row. Heard of some going 8 inches deep so moisture saturation can have it available and encourage deeper rooting. Zero til guys must have most of their P in the top couple of inches if only putting it in the seed row. The same couple of dried out inches where roots don’t want to grow.

 

11-52-0 is actually initially soluble in water and is just as mobile as the water it might dissolve into. For irrigation calculations one litre of water can absorb 374 grams of MAP (11-52-0 ) at 20 degrees C.



Fertilizer Solubility - Dissolve a Fertilizer